Indigrid
Started by Franz Grieser
on 12/29/2017
Franz Grieser
12/29/2017 3:46 pm
In the "one text file... to rule them all" thread Mark Nevarrik introduced an app called Indigrid (https://innovationdilation.com/index.html
It looks promising but there is no useful documentation, the app crashes, there is no "New document" nor a "Save as" command, the "New column" command does not work the way I (and obviously others in this forum) expect. I must confess I do not know what to do with Indigrid and how to use it.
@Mark: Enlighten us.
It looks promising but there is no useful documentation, the app crashes, there is no "New document" nor a "Save as" command, the "New column" command does not work the way I (and obviously others in this forum) expect. I must confess I do not know what to do with Indigrid and how to use it.
@Mark: Enlighten us.
Stephen Zeoli
12/29/2017 5:05 pm
I just gave it a go and have the same reaction as you, Franz. I read the developer's manifesto about the app, which sounds good and made me expect it to be more refined than the current app, which seems more like it is in its Alpha stage.
Steve Z.
Steve Z.
Jon Polish
12/29/2017 5:21 pm
Agreed. I too expected more refinement.
The implementation of "columns" reminds me of Brainstorm.
Jon
The implementation of "columns" reminds me of Brainstorm.
Jon
tightbeam
12/29/2017 7:12 pm
I don't think anyone wants a side of philosophy with their software, especially when the software being philosophized about doesn't work.
Here's a shorter manifesto:
1. Figure out what the software is supposed to do.
2. Make sure it does that, every time it's used.
3. Tell or show others how to use it.
Here's a shorter manifesto:
1. Figure out what the software is supposed to do.
2. Make sure it does that, every time it's used.
3. Tell or show others how to use it.
Ruud Hein
12/29/2017 11:07 pm
Auto-saves to a Sqlite database in its own application directory.
Each indent can become or be shown in its own column (right-click → new column).
Example: https://imgur.com/a/4LePN
Very error prone, I think to specific characters.
Basically an outliner where you can view sections of your list side by side in columns.
Each indent can become or be shown in its own column (right-click → new column).
Example: https://imgur.com/a/4LePN
Very error prone, I think to specific characters.
Basically an outliner where you can view sections of your list side by side in columns.
Mark Nevarrik
12/30/2017 12:01 am
Hey guys,
My apologies for the confusion. I just released Indigrid on the 26th, and it was between getting something out to get some feedback or increasing the risk of getting deep in the weeds. I should have set the expectations.
As for the crashes, there is a link on the crash message where you can send me an email of the message. You don't even have to fill anything out, just with the error message I can probably track it down—I'd appreciate it but no hard feelings either if you'd rather check in again in a year for something more established.
As for the columns, you are creating a new view of a subset of the current or focused column that you are opening up an alternative view on. You can duplicate an existing view but then filter it. Or if you want to have 4 columns that you drag between, in the Root column make 4 nodes with children and create columns for those. Note that you can undo closing or opening columns—the undo extends to changes of the "view." Probably my mistake that if you have a node without any children, creating a column on it will make a column on that node's parent—which when playing around just duplicates the Root node.
As for the philosophy—these were my notes to get feedback on where I am trying to take the project. It isn't there, but by writing it I was able to make design decisions that would have been hard to revisit later. For example, all "view" operations go on the undo stack—even things like resizing a column or filtering a column. And the database design keeps track of all changes, even if right now the only benefit is that undo persists after closing Indigrid. But later I can "unlock" those dormant changes to create views of different revisions of the tree or sub-tree.
Chris Murtland brought up a nasty bug—if you close the initial root you can't get back to it right now—let me see if I can't get a new version up tonight addressing that and some of the other great concerns Chris brought up. Thank you Chris.
And Washere left me hanging on the "half a dozen vital functions and interface features" that could make the software better. I'd love to hear what's on that list Washere.
My apologies for the confusion. I just released Indigrid on the 26th, and it was between getting something out to get some feedback or increasing the risk of getting deep in the weeds. I should have set the expectations.
As for the crashes, there is a link on the crash message where you can send me an email of the message. You don't even have to fill anything out, just with the error message I can probably track it down—I'd appreciate it but no hard feelings either if you'd rather check in again in a year for something more established.
As for the columns, you are creating a new view of a subset of the current or focused column that you are opening up an alternative view on. You can duplicate an existing view but then filter it. Or if you want to have 4 columns that you drag between, in the Root column make 4 nodes with children and create columns for those. Note that you can undo closing or opening columns—the undo extends to changes of the "view." Probably my mistake that if you have a node without any children, creating a column on it will make a column on that node's parent—which when playing around just duplicates the Root node.
As for the philosophy—these were my notes to get feedback on where I am trying to take the project. It isn't there, but by writing it I was able to make design decisions that would have been hard to revisit later. For example, all "view" operations go on the undo stack—even things like resizing a column or filtering a column. And the database design keeps track of all changes, even if right now the only benefit is that undo persists after closing Indigrid. But later I can "unlock" those dormant changes to create views of different revisions of the tree or sub-tree.
Chris Murtland brought up a nasty bug—if you close the initial root you can't get back to it right now—let me see if I can't get a new version up tonight addressing that and some of the other great concerns Chris brought up. Thank you Chris.
And Washere left me hanging on the "half a dozen vital functions and interface features" that could make the software better. I'd love to hear what's on that list Washere.
Mark Nevarrik
12/30/2017 4:28 am
Ruudhein has some detective skills, and I like your description of "view sections of your list, side by side."
I threw together some notes on how to use it—https://innovationdilation.com/quick-start.html
Ruudhein, I'm unable to reproduce the crash you are getting with the dash and plus symbols and my detective skills aren't as good as yours. If you get the crash again could you please hit the "contact author" link on the message box please?
I can see how it seems like clicking that link will push all the reporting to you, but what it does is it fills out an email with the error message—it is programmed with many "asserts" or conditions that it will purposely crash on, and I can look that up just with the error message—it restarts because it is pessimistic. If it is an actual crash—it will also open up the crash files folder in a new explorer window so you can add the dmp files as an attachment.
I would super appreciate it—it is a new version and maybe others are hitting the same issue and no one is letting me know because I made that message box seem like too much work.
Perhaps I should open up a window with the text to the email message already shown, and then still have the link but see that most of the heavy lifting is already done for you.
It even signs the email politely, anonymously.
But either way, thanks for your comments. I used a variation of your description in the help file to describe it as sections, and not new disjointed columns.
ruudhein wrote:
I threw together some notes on how to use it—https://innovationdilation.com/quick-start.html
Ruudhein, I'm unable to reproduce the crash you are getting with the dash and plus symbols and my detective skills aren't as good as yours. If you get the crash again could you please hit the "contact author" link on the message box please?
I can see how it seems like clicking that link will push all the reporting to you, but what it does is it fills out an email with the error message—it is programmed with many "asserts" or conditions that it will purposely crash on, and I can look that up just with the error message—it restarts because it is pessimistic. If it is an actual crash—it will also open up the crash files folder in a new explorer window so you can add the dmp files as an attachment.
I would super appreciate it—it is a new version and maybe others are hitting the same issue and no one is letting me know because I made that message box seem like too much work.
Perhaps I should open up a window with the text to the email message already shown, and then still have the link but see that most of the heavy lifting is already done for you.
It even signs the email politely, anonymously.
But either way, thanks for your comments. I used a variation of your description in the help file to describe it as sections, and not new disjointed columns.
ruudhein wrote:
Auto-saves to a Sqlite database in its own application directory.
Each indent can become or be shown in its own column (right-click
→ new column).
Example: https://imgur.com/a/4LePN
Very error prone, I think to specific characters.
Basically an outliner where you can view sections of your list side by
side in columns.
Slartibartfarst
12/30/2017 5:44 am
I was going to give Indigrid a miss after the initial posts in this thread, but then I read Mark Nevarrik's post (Dec 30, 2017 at 12:01 AM) and became interested (so, thankyou, Mark).
I read pretty much all over the Indigrid website, including the "10,000-word essay" and which i found very interesting. I am always interested to consider people's thoughts and ideas about thinking and idea creation.
I then downloaded the Indigrid installer file and ran it.
My experiences:
1. The installer was impressively quick to do what it did.
2. Installed location: I looked at where it had installed the proggie and I work folders - - it seemed to be all under my UserID. I would have preferred to have been given an option to install it elsewhere, but I recognise this is a nicety when one is testing a Beta app.
3. Indigrid has a clean, simple GUI, but I was unable to explore it much, at first. When I tried to do most anything, the proggie seemed to crash at an annoyingly early stage, with fleeting and vague error messages that it had encountered an (undefined) error and needed to restart, or something.
4. However, after I restarted it, it seemed to settle down and behave itself. I wondered whether the app had the necessary write access permissions to the folder it was installed in, on first start.
5. So I was then able to play around with it to a greater extent.
6. I like the relatively intuitive navigation controls. Good ergonomics.
7. The bottom bar of the GUI seems to have a poor selection of contrasting (or non-contrasting) colours and fonts, making some of the text difficult to read. This is a problem in ergonomic visual perception. Unless they have been developing military software or graphics displays, most developers would probably not appreciate this comment (though they might have lots of opinions about it).
8. Version tested: The .exe version I was testing was v1.0.2.0, MD5 hash: (32D7CA350A52E9B3A85AA0546212575B)
9. I didn't do any more testing as Mark wrote that he intended putting up an update soon.
I think Mark's website definitely needs an RSS feed defined. I cannot abide registering for "push" news via "Newsletter" registration (I won't do it), but I always use "pull" news by subscribing deserving websites (e.g., OutlinerSoftware.com).to my BazQux feed-reader.
Hope this helps or is of use.
_________________________________________
I read pretty much all over the Indigrid website, including the "10,000-word essay" and which i found very interesting. I am always interested to consider people's thoughts and ideas about thinking and idea creation.
I then downloaded the Indigrid installer file and ran it.
My experiences:
1. The installer was impressively quick to do what it did.
2. Installed location: I looked at where it had installed the proggie and I work folders - - it seemed to be all under my UserID. I would have preferred to have been given an option to install it elsewhere, but I recognise this is a nicety when one is testing a Beta app.
3. Indigrid has a clean, simple GUI, but I was unable to explore it much, at first. When I tried to do most anything, the proggie seemed to crash at an annoyingly early stage, with fleeting and vague error messages that it had encountered an (undefined) error and needed to restart, or something.
4. However, after I restarted it, it seemed to settle down and behave itself. I wondered whether the app had the necessary write access permissions to the folder it was installed in, on first start.
5. So I was then able to play around with it to a greater extent.
6. I like the relatively intuitive navigation controls. Good ergonomics.
7. The bottom bar of the GUI seems to have a poor selection of contrasting (or non-contrasting) colours and fonts, making some of the text difficult to read. This is a problem in ergonomic visual perception. Unless they have been developing military software or graphics displays, most developers would probably not appreciate this comment (though they might have lots of opinions about it).
8. Version tested: The .exe version I was testing was v1.0.2.0, MD5 hash: (32D7CA350A52E9B3A85AA0546212575B)
9. I didn't do any more testing as Mark wrote that he intended putting up an update soon.
I think Mark's website definitely needs an RSS feed defined. I cannot abide registering for "push" news via "Newsletter" registration (I won't do it), but I always use "pull" news by subscribing deserving websites (e.g., OutlinerSoftware.com).to my BazQux feed-reader.
Hope this helps or is of use.
_________________________________________
Franz Grieser
12/30/2017 9:16 am
ruudhein wrote:
I know. I expected the command to create an empty new column for new notes (as it is not called "Show in new column").
Each indent can become or be shown in its own column (right-click
→ new column).
I know. I expected the command to create an empty new column for new notes (as it is not called "Show in new column").
washere
12/30/2017 6:54 pm
Mark Nevarrik wrote: ..............
And Washere left me hanging on the "half a dozen vital functions and
interface features" that could make the software better. I'd love to
hear what's on that list Washere.
________________________________________________________
1: File (menu): New, Open, Close, Save, Save as..
2: Export: (Standard tree outline) OPML
Or OTL, I am a Bonsai Natara kind of guy. HTML for tree is pretty useless.
3: Import: samo samo ^^^
4: Night Mode, as in many apps: Black/very dark background with light grey/white font
Like many, I simply do not use apps with white background. Not just to save battery on laptop, or the eyes, can not do it anymore like many accustomed.
Even my Win explorer panes are black, as my Android Substratum black themes, etc.
Better yet, customize colors options, too early for you prob.
5: Stabilize:
Crashes: C0000005 etc
Opening app or inserting columns makes the file go away and gives blank screen, another func brings it back!
etc etc I have not had time to red comments in this thread yet, prob have similar issues, i'd list'em to replicate
6: Bottom bar: Try smaller laptops, does not fit
either compact it so it fits, abbreviate or one word on top of other etc
or better yet, convert to top toolbar with text lable on mouse-hover-focus
7: Basic Outline Tree Functions that do work in all scenarios
With shortcuts/menu (and in later vers top toolbar icons):
Insert Node: (i'd drop columns terminology), below where the current mouse or cursor focus is
Insert Child Node: or Sub-Node samo, multi level
Delete: Node / Child-node
Move Node (or Child node) ^ Up + Down v
Move Node (or Child node) < Left + Right > : This is for sub-levels
Exapnd All
Collapse All
Expand Branch: having current mouse or cursor focus
Collapse Branch: having current mouse or cursor focus
I know you might say some of these are there but they are:
Not functioning as they should per definition in some cases
Not fuunctioning
Not stable
Not all listed are there
This is a basic set of functions needed for any tree outline editor, there is more though!
A project manager or professional tester would basically savage the current build wrt above basic tree-outliner basic func.s, no way jose, it ain't even close in features or performance or stability.
________________________________________________________
This should be good to start with aiming for a stable Beta or an RC1.
The last section, 7, plus OPML export as no tool is an island nowadays, is most important.
If no color customming or at least Dark/night/black mode, I won't use it.
Like I said, the idea and the looks are good, if you end up enjoy using it, it will be good.
Good luck bro
Mark Nevarrik
12/31/2017 2:46 pm
This has been some great feedback. I've released a new version addressing some of the issues that have come up, I'm very appreciative for the opportunities revealed to improve. The biggest issues fixed were a duplicate column going white when its clone was closed, and restoring the functionality of the "reset column to root." Full changelog here: https://innovationdilation.com/changelog.html
Thanks again, and if there is any more feedback—I'm listening, you guys are the experts :)
Thanks again, and if there is any more feedback—I'm listening, you guys are the experts :)
Sharknader
1/2/2018 7:18 pm
Mark, I wanted to post this given all the negative feedback you received for the application. I've played around with it for a bit and actually tried using the application for its intended purpose, namely to use it as a canvass to explore a particular problem. For that purpose, it works great. It's a great brainstorming application for people who tend to think in outlines as opposed to mind maps. I find mindmaps overwhelming quickly, but as a long-time user of Workflowy and Dynalist, being limited to a particular outline part at a time is restricting in terms of trying to keep all related concepts in focus. There are of course workarounds in those apps, but none as elegant as quickly opening a sub-item in a new side-by-side column. My only gripe is that I wish I could start a new column from any sub-item (even before it has any children).
But overall, I have a very positive impression of this application and view it as a quick mind-mapping tool for people inclined to outlines. It's like Drafts for iOS. You need to get your thoughts out but not quite sure where, but you don't expect to store your data in the app once you have a cohesive idea/solution.
But overall, I have a very positive impression of this application and view it as a quick mind-mapping tool for people inclined to outlines. It's like Drafts for iOS. You need to get your thoughts out but not quite sure where, but you don't expect to store your data in the app once you have a cohesive idea/solution.
Mark Nevarrik
1/16/2018 8:48 am
I wanted to post an update addressing some of the great feedback I have gotten. I didn't want to make this thread a blog of updates, so I batched it all up into one post.
bobmclain wrote:
I recorded a short ~7-8 minute demo of some of the features at https://innovationdilation.com
The last part is on columns, and starts at around 6:20.
Chris Murtland wrote:
As of 31 Dec 2017, there is a reset column command to revert back to root.
As of 2 Jan 2018, there is a clear filter command, but as Ctrl + Shift + F, because Escape already gets you out of edit mode.
As of 15 Jan 2018, filtering by text expands matching elements. But only matching elements, so if you later remove the filter, items that weren't previously matched keep their collapsed state.
And filtering operations go on the undo stack, along with their expanded state.
Slartibartfarst wrote:
As of 31 Dec 2017 the contrast was improved for the bottom bar.
There is no newsletter, only a notify list for when the mac version comes out. I didn't have the foresight to think of using it for anything else, mailchimp makes you name your list and I named it "Mac notify list." But I like the idea of an RSS feed.
Franz Grieser wrote:
As of 31 Dec 2017 this has been changed to "Open in column to left/right." I should have known better; before it was something like "open" and then it got changed to "new" which you are right, is misleading.
washere wrote:
I'd like to think that most of this has been fixed as of 15 Jan 2018, most of these problems stemmed from moving an element in one column that was the parent of another column. This gets hit when playing around with small lists, but doesn't happen much with my personal database. My apologies, it was released too soon and I'm sorry to have had so many of you hit this early on.
Fixed as of 2 Jan 2018.
Sharknader wrote:
I super appreciate the comment Sharknader. I'm happy with negative feedback too, they were all opportunities to improve the software and that's motivating.
I think opening up a sub-item as a new column is wise, especially when you are just starting out and playing around. I will try it, I think I choose the parent if the selected element didn't have children because of root element. So many decisions you have to make while programming.
Thanks again everyone for your input.
bobmclain wrote:
2. With software so simple, I didn't think I'd need a help file. But I
guess I do. I created a new "column" to the right of the existing
(default) column. Everything I write in one column is duplicated in the
other column. This can't be correct, as there's no point (that I can
see) to this behavior. I want multiple horizontal columns that are able
to contain *different* content - content that, ideally, I can drag back
and forth between columns.
I recorded a short ~7-8 minute demo of some of the features at https://innovationdilation.com
The last part is on columns, and starts at around 6:20.
Chris Murtland wrote:
* I closed the column that had my root node. I don't see any way to go
back up the tree in a column that is set to some child of arbitrary
depth, so now I am trapped in a sub-tree.
As of 31 Dec 2017, there is a reset column command to revert back to root.
* Is the only way to clear the filter to run the filter again with an
empty string? I think it would be great to clear a column's filter with
the Escape key.
As of 2 Jan 2018, there is a clear filter command, but as Ctrl + Shift + F, because Escape already gets you out of edit mode.
Also, I am used to a filtered outline automatically
expanding to show the matches, but I can see how not doing so could also
be useful at times. Maybe an option? I know, the options dialog is
getting rather cluttered.
As of 15 Jan 2018, filtering by text expands matching elements. But only matching elements, so if you later remove the filter, items that weren't previously matched keep their collapsed state.
And filtering operations go on the undo stack, along with their expanded state.
Slartibartfarst wrote:
7. The bottom bar of the GUI seems to have a poor selection of
contrasting (or non-contrasting) colours and fonts, making some of the
text difficult to read. This is a problem in ergonomic visual
perception. Unless they have been developing military software or
graphics displays, most developers would probably not appreciate this
comment (though they might have lots of opinions about it).
As of 31 Dec 2017 the contrast was improved for the bottom bar.
I think Mark's website definitely needs an RSS feed defined. I cannot
abide registering for "push" news via "Newsletter" registration (I won't
do it), but I always use "pull" news by subscribing deserving websites
(e.g., OutlinerSoftware.com).to my BazQux feed-reader.
There is no newsletter, only a notify list for when the mac version comes out. I didn't have the foresight to think of using it for anything else, mailchimp makes you name your list and I named it "Mac notify list." But I like the idea of an RSS feed.
Franz Grieser wrote:
ruudhein wrote:
>Each indent can become or be shown in its own column (right-click
>→ new column).
I know. I expected the command to create an empty new column for new
notes (as it is not called "Show in new column").
As of 31 Dec 2017 this has been changed to "Open in column to left/right." I should have known better; before it was something like "open" and then it got changed to "new" which you are right, is misleading.
washere wrote:
5: Stabilize:
Crashes: C0000005 etc
Opening app or inserting columns makes the file go away and gives blank
screen, another func brings it back!
etc etc I have not had time to red comments in this thread yet, prob
have similar issues, i'd list'em to replicate
I'd like to think that most of this has been fixed as of 15 Jan 2018, most of these problems stemmed from moving an element in one column that was the parent of another column. This gets hit when playing around with small lists, but doesn't happen much with my personal database. My apologies, it was released too soon and I'm sorry to have had so many of you hit this early on.
6: Bottom bar: Try smaller laptops, does not fit
either compact it so it fits, abbreviate or one word on top of other etc
or better yet, convert to top toolbar with text lable on
mouse-hover-focus
Fixed as of 2 Jan 2018.
Sharknader wrote:
Mark, I wanted to post this given all the negative feedback you received
for the application.
I super appreciate the comment Sharknader. I'm happy with negative feedback too, they were all opportunities to improve the software and that's motivating.
My only gripe is that I wish I
could start a new column from any sub-item (even before it has any
children).
I think opening up a sub-item as a new column is wise, especially when you are just starting out and playing around. I will try it, I think I choose the parent if the selected element didn't have children because of root element. So many decisions you have to make while programming.
Thanks again everyone for your input.
tightbeam
1/16/2018 11:05 am
Mark Nevarrik wrote:
Thanks, Mark. I appreciate you taking everything in stride and using it to improve the software. I'll take another look at it.
Sharknader: There was no "negative" feedback here; just helpful feedback. Nothing improves if no one complains.
I wanted to post an update addressing some of the great feedback I have
gotten. I didn't want to make this thread a blog of updates, so I
batched it all up into one post.
Thanks, Mark. I appreciate you taking everything in stride and using it to improve the software. I'll take another look at it.
Sharknader: There was no "negative" feedback here; just helpful feedback. Nothing improves if no one complains.
Chris Thompson
1/16/2018 2:49 pm
I finally got around to reading the "Design Philosophy" document. It's interesting how similar the ideas are to the incremental formalization ideas that are behind Tinderbox.
Mark, if you've never read Bernstein's "The Tinderbox Way", you'd undoubtedly enjoy it. Probably doubly so if you chase down some of the academic papers on spatial hypertext the author refers to in that book.
Mark, if you've never read Bernstein's "The Tinderbox Way", you'd undoubtedly enjoy it. Probably doubly so if you chase down some of the academic papers on spatial hypertext the author refers to in that book.
shatteredmindofbob
1/21/2018 4:42 am
I like this and see a lot of potential.
The 10,000 word design document reminds me of MaxThink, where again, the manual was more about the philosophy of "how to think" rather than how to actually use the software.
I also like the idea of antisocial, neurotic and introverted software (which are all adjectives that have been used to describe me at one point or another).
That said, that are still features lacking that keep me from using this. I need to be able to save and load different files. Taking that further, I'd want import/export. When interacting with my thoughts, I want to be able to get thoughts both in and out of the software assisting me.
The 10,000 word design document reminds me of MaxThink, where again, the manual was more about the philosophy of "how to think" rather than how to actually use the software.
I also like the idea of antisocial, neurotic and introverted software (which are all adjectives that have been used to describe me at one point or another).
That said, that are still features lacking that keep me from using this. I need to be able to save and load different files. Taking that further, I'd want import/export. When interacting with my thoughts, I want to be able to get thoughts both in and out of the software assisting me.
washere
1/22/2018 3:02 pm
@Dev Thanks for your response to some feedback. Hope you consider the other feedback in this thread too at some point in future, if you have time. Good job, keep going.
Mark Nevarrik
1/22/2018 6:34 pm
Chris Thompson wrote:
Chris, thanks for the recommendation, and for taking the time to read my thoughts. I looked at sample PDF for "The Tinderbox Way," and it seemed like mostly a software manual for Tinderbox. Good ideas can come from anywhere, but I'm trying to get my influences from outside of software.
As for the spatial hypertext, did you mean the ZigZag database? I have read their papers here: http://www.xanadu.com/zigzag/
Those were interesting ideas, and it reminds me of the ideas of Tim Berners-Lee and the development of NCSA Mosaic. Tim Berners-Lee took all these ideas floating around and formed a coherent design and developed the first web browser. Only it wasn't until Mosaic—that he had misgivings about—introduced things like the back/forward stack and a hand cursor when hovering over hyperlinks that it began to get popular.
Some people could see the future before that, but most people had to get a feel for it with all those little edges sanded down.
Sharknader wrote:
Sharknader, you were right about this. I changed it to as you said and it is way better—not only is it more clear what is happened because it doesn't switch column headers from where your focus is, but sometimes you want to start outlining from a leaf element. Great idea. New version is released as of today.
shatteredmindofbob wrote:
I can see the pain of no file management. I have multiple windows, and an open node search pane in the works. Adding more files wouldn't be hard, only I wonder if the real problem isn't "I want to control and switch to a separate view." What if you could have different tabs each with their own set of columns that you can switch between?
I'm probably ignorant about what programs Indigrid can/should import from/export to, and what formats it needs to support to do that. I thought that plain-text was a common enough denominator to work on most programs. What is it missing exactly?
washere wrote:
Washere, thank you the encouragement. Anything you want to see? Anything that I missed?
Mark, if you've never read Bernstein's "The Tinderbox Way", you'd
undoubtedly enjoy it. Probably doubly so if you chase down some of the
academic papers on spatial hypertext the author refers to in that book.
Chris, thanks for the recommendation, and for taking the time to read my thoughts. I looked at sample PDF for "The Tinderbox Way," and it seemed like mostly a software manual for Tinderbox. Good ideas can come from anywhere, but I'm trying to get my influences from outside of software.
As for the spatial hypertext, did you mean the ZigZag database? I have read their papers here: http://www.xanadu.com/zigzag/
Those were interesting ideas, and it reminds me of the ideas of Tim Berners-Lee and the development of NCSA Mosaic. Tim Berners-Lee took all these ideas floating around and formed a coherent design and developed the first web browser. Only it wasn't until Mosaic—that he had misgivings about—introduced things like the back/forward stack and a hand cursor when hovering over hyperlinks that it began to get popular.
Some people could see the future before that, but most people had to get a feel for it with all those little edges sanded down.
Sharknader wrote:
My only gripe is that I wish I
could start a new column from any sub-item (even before it has any
children).
Sharknader, you were right about this. I changed it to as you said and it is way better—not only is it more clear what is happened because it doesn't switch column headers from where your focus is, but sometimes you want to start outlining from a leaf element. Great idea. New version is released as of today.
shatteredmindofbob wrote:
That said, that are still features lacking that keep me from using this.
I need to be able to save and load different files.
I can see the pain of no file management. I have multiple windows, and an open node search pane in the works. Adding more files wouldn't be hard, only I wonder if the real problem isn't "I want to control and switch to a separate view." What if you could have different tabs each with their own set of columns that you can switch between?
Taking that further,
I'd want import/export. When interacting with my thoughts, I want to be
able to get thoughts both in and out of the software assisting me.
I'm probably ignorant about what programs Indigrid can/should import from/export to, and what formats it needs to support to do that. I thought that plain-text was a common enough denominator to work on most programs. What is it missing exactly?
washere wrote:
@Dev Thanks for your response to some feedback. Hope you consider the
other feedback in this thread too at some point in future, if you have
time. Good job, keep going.
Washere, thank you the encouragement. Anything you want to see? Anything that I missed?
washere
1/22/2018 7:15 pm
washere wrote:
@Dev Thanks for your response to some feedback. Hope you consider the
>other feedback in this thread too at some point in future, if you have
>time. Good job, keep going.
Washere, thank you the encouragement. Anything you want to see? Anything
that I missed?
What did you not miss buddy? Look at my post on bottom of page 2. File menu standards, open close save save-as. not to mention import export and a couple filetype formats for them. Crash still happens, just relaunches. After launch hitting new-line does nothing. View: open in column to left or right kicks things in but just duplicates first pane. bottom bar fix is basically auto-hide some commands, unorthodox, instead of toolbar. etc etc. Very unorthodox, needs to be standard interface and basic functions and basic outliner features too.
Have a look at my post again if you get enough time.
Best wishes bud.
shatteredmindofbob
1/23/2018 10:59 am
Mark Nevarrik wrote:
shatteredmindofbob wrote:
>That said, that are still features lacking that keep me from using
this.
>I need to be able to save and load different files.
>
I can see the pain of no file management. I have multiple windows, and
an open node search pane in the works. Adding more files wouldn't be
hard, only I wonder if the real problem isn't "I want to control and
switch to a separate view." What if you could have different tabs each
with their own set of columns that you can switch between?
It's not so much about a separate view, but a completely separate document. If say, I want to flesh out a completely new idea, I'd want to be able to quickly begin from scratch, something that isn't connected to anything else.
>Taking that further,
>I'd want import/export. When interacting with my thoughts, I want to be
>able to get thoughts both in and out of the software assisting me.
>
I'm probably ignorant about what programs Indigrid can/should import
from/export to, and what formats it needs to support to do that. I
thought that plain-text was a common enough denominator to work on most
programs. What is it missing exactly?
Plain text is fine for import/export, you'd just need to ability to even save to a .txt file, without having to rely on copying and pasting.
tightbeam
1/23/2018 11:42 am
shatteredmindofbob wrote:
What's to like about that kind of software? Sounds more like an art project...
For Indigrid, I'd work first on making it *not* crash so frequently, and maybe then on a proper export (not just copy and paste).
I also like the idea of antisocial, neurotic and introverted software
What's to like about that kind of software? Sounds more like an art project...
For Indigrid, I'd work first on making it *not* crash so frequently, and maybe then on a proper export (not just copy and paste).
Mark Nevarrik
1/23/2018 6:57 pm
washere wrote:
Hey Washere, I apologize for not looking into detail in your list. And I feel bad because you have been very encouraging this whole time, but I already asked twice what it needed but it wasn't specific enough for me to understand. Do you have an orthodox outliner that you recommend as an exemplar that I could get ideas from? When you mentioned the features that I have but that aren't complete or work incorrectly—I don't doubt you, I wrote Indigrid while I was using Word to write a book on concentration and thought maybe this would work better with columns. So I really don't know much about outliners at all.
As for duplicating the column, that should have been fixed in build 8—however any crashes you send my way I will look at first thing. You can use https://www.guerrillamail.com/compose if you don't want me following up with you—no hard feelings.
What did you not miss buddy? Look at my post on bottom of page 2. File
menu standards, open close save save-as. not to mention import export
and a couple filetype formats for them. Crash still happens, just
relaunches. After launch hitting new-line does nothing. View: open in
column to left or right kicks things in but just duplicates first pane.
bottom bar fix is basically auto-hide some commands, unorthodox, instead
of toolbar. etc etc. Very unorthodox, needs to be standard interface and
basic functions and basic outliner features too.
Have a look at my post again if you get enough time.
Best wishes bud.
Hey Washere, I apologize for not looking into detail in your list. And I feel bad because you have been very encouraging this whole time, but I already asked twice what it needed but it wasn't specific enough for me to understand. Do you have an orthodox outliner that you recommend as an exemplar that I could get ideas from? When you mentioned the features that I have but that aren't complete or work incorrectly—I don't doubt you, I wrote Indigrid while I was using Word to write a book on concentration and thought maybe this would work better with columns. So I really don't know much about outliners at all.
As for duplicating the column, that should have been fixed in build 8—however any crashes you send my way I will look at first thing. You can use https://www.guerrillamail.com/compose if you don't want me following up with you—no hard feelings.
Mark Nevarrik
1/23/2018 7:18 pm
shatteredmindofbob wrote:
I understand now that you put it that way. I didn't see before that not having everything connected could be desirable. I will look into having different databases that are siloed from each other, like files.
I had a great feature idea from someone where Indigrid "watches" external text files for changes and then reloads the changes under a designated node—and conversely exports any changes under that node back out to the text file. So that is coming, and could also double as an import/export. This also gives a little bit of mobility if you put those files on Dropbox.
bobmclain wrote:
Don't forget the website also mentions pretentious software :) And it is an art project :)
"It is the function of art to renew our perception. What we are familiar with we cease to see." — Anaïs Nin
Bob would you mind sending me the crash files generated from the crashes you get please? They are in %appdata%/indigrid/crashes
I totally get that it is a hassle—I'm worried that perhaps because of previous versions that somehow the state got bad.
Either way, I hear loud and clear now that export to a file is important. Thank you for continuing to help me out with constructive criticism.
It's not so much about a separate view, but a completely separate
document. If say, I want to flesh out a completely new idea, I'd want to
be able to quickly begin from scratch, something that isn't connected to
anything else.
I understand now that you put it that way. I didn't see before that not having everything connected could be desirable. I will look into having different databases that are siloed from each other, like files.
Plain text is fine for import/export, you'd just need to ability to even
save to a .txt file, without having to rely on copying and pasting.
I had a great feature idea from someone where Indigrid "watches" external text files for changes and then reloads the changes under a designated node—and conversely exports any changes under that node back out to the text file. So that is coming, and could also double as an import/export. This also gives a little bit of mobility if you put those files on Dropbox.
bobmclain wrote:
shatteredmindofbob wrote:
> I also like the idea of antisocial, neurotic and introverted software
What's to like about that kind of software? Sounds more like an art
project...
Don't forget the website also mentions pretentious software :) And it is an art project :)
"It is the function of art to renew our perception. What we are familiar with we cease to see." — Anaïs Nin
For Indigrid, I'd work first on making it *not* crash so frequently, and
maybe then on a proper export (not just copy and paste).
Bob would you mind sending me the crash files generated from the crashes you get please? They are in %appdata%/indigrid/crashes
I totally get that it is a hassle—I'm worried that perhaps because of previous versions that somehow the state got bad.
Either way, I hear loud and clear now that export to a file is important. Thank you for continuing to help me out with constructive criticism.
washere
1/23/2018 8:43 pm
Mark Nevarrik wrote:
Hey Washere, I apologize for not looking into detail in your list. And I
feel bad because you have been very encouraging this whole time, but I
already asked twice what it needed but it wasn't specific enough for me
to understand. Do you have an orthodox outliner that you recommend as an
exemplar that I could get ideas from? When you mentioned the features
that I have but that aren't complete or work incorrectly—I don't
doubt you, I wrote Indigrid while I was using Word to write a book on
concentration and thought maybe this would work better with columns. So
I really don't know much about outliners at all.
As for duplicating the column, that should have been fixed in build
8—however any crashes you send my way I will look at first thing.
You can use https://www.guerrillamail.com/compose if you don't want me
following up with you—no hard feelings.
Hey Mark, How you doin?
I would basically say priorities would be:
1) Fix crash issues from guys sending in logs, etc
2) Add basic FILE Menu standards: Open, Close, New, Save, Save as etc
3) If poss later: Export & import to one or two main format, OPML is easy, basicaly HTML with nested < indent > tag for levels
4) Get rid of bottom bar and make a top toolbar with icons for: open new save copy paste new-node new-sub-node etc
5) Expand & Collapse for: All & Current (highlighted) branch
6)Orthodox or classic outliner? I have tested hundreds of software, rated their folders on my NAS with 1 to 5 stars (actually 0 to 00000 prefix in folder name). The classic would be Bonsai Natara. But do not waste time if you do not. Another closer to yuo is UV outliner. He has abandoned it, basically needs OPML export. Look at these photos:
https://www.google.com/search?q=UV+Outliner&source=lnms&tbm=isch
But an easier route for you would be this format:
Basic Outliner:
i) Left pane: nodes and sub-nodes
ii) Right pane: Node (or sub-node)
iii) optional: Multi-file: Can be top tabs under toolbar or even better to left of (i) ie: nodes/subnodes pane, so you end up with 3 panes: Files & Nodes & Data for highlighted node
Anyway if you have used it to finish your book and you seem to be talented in a few areas, I would say forget about this bud. Not that it is not good or has no potential, but quite the opposite because it does. Just use other already outliners for your personal use, plenty discussed here or on blogs by DrAndus or Zeoli or others. Don't look for the perfect, just those that get your needs done as you did writing your book. Don't feel obliged here either because some like me here say needs this or that. It's a thankless job.
You can put your spare time into a tech startup idea or similar or something that helps some community using your skills which will be much more rewarding. Either you make lots of money or help in a more profound way, or both, why not. I am only saying this because you are talented and also a nice and genuine guy and hopefully can be very successful putting your spare time energy into something bigger, even if it takes a while. Go create a new and bigger idea, and do that and make lots of money and help people too bud.
Soon I won't have time to post here anymore so wish you all the best bud. You deserve it.
Chris Murtland
1/23/2018 10:24 pm
I'd also suggest looking at BrainStorm on Windows - it's a bit dated at this point, but it has some interesting features. You can break off editing parts of the outline into separate windows, which is quite similar to what you are doing with columns:
http://brainstormsw.com/multiview.html
In my opinion, however, the greatest thing about BrainStorm is the ability to "mark" multiple locations in the outline and then "throw" or "retrieve" entries to/from those marks - even if the marks aren't visible.
Also take a look at Noteliner on Windows - discontinued, but I think there is a link somewhere to download it. It's lightweight but does quite a few clever things.
I'm pretty interested in the idea of editing external plain text files. Please post an update once we can try that.
http://brainstormsw.com/multiview.html
In my opinion, however, the greatest thing about BrainStorm is the ability to "mark" multiple locations in the outline and then "throw" or "retrieve" entries to/from those marks - even if the marks aren't visible.
Also take a look at Noteliner on Windows - discontinued, but I think there is a link somewhere to download it. It's lightweight but does quite a few clever things.
I'm pretty interested in the idea of editing external plain text files. Please post an update once we can try that.
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