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About the survival of our Data ( when Apps die )
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Posted by Skywatcher
Jun 8, 2025 at 06:08 PM
I’d like to talk about a subject that has become quite important to me and gather your opinions on it.
Last year, it was announced that iThoughts was being terminated and abandoned by its developer. https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/10522/0/ithoughts-discontinued
There was no explanation apart from the fact that the company was closing.
This came as a bit of a shock to me then. It was an app that I relied a lot on, I spent years making dozens of elaborate maps about projects, plans, guides , etc.
I considered it to be by far the best mindmap software in the Apple environment, having almost perfectly identical versions on Mac/iPad/iPhone, and it seemed to be quite successful commercially as well. It also had a Windows version that was released more recently.
The idea that it could just disappear like that , one morning, without any warnings never even crossed my mind.
I found myself scrambling to find an alternative, testing pretty much every mindmap available on the market. The OMPL export from iThoughts never got properly imported into any other app. I settled on MindNode which did the best job at importing the iThoughts maps, but I still had to spend days reconstructing the maps properly, copying by hand some of the stuff that just didn’t get imported , relinking nodes that didn’t relink properly , etc. It was an infuriating process.
That experience really did make me think about what might happen to the massive amount of data I have in various applications , especially Curio, Tinderbox, Devonthink and Obsidian.
I hope all these developers have a long productive life, but we have to be prepared to the fact that one day we might just wake up and find that the developer of an app we deeply rely on has decided to become a reclusive monk living alone on top of a mountain with a goat and a plant of tomatoes. Or any other scenario that just leads to the company and the application being completely abandoned.
The best-case scenario would be that it would be sold to another developer, or the developer(s) have a plan that if they abandon the app, it would be released as open-source so that other volunteer developers would keep it running for at least enough time for people to figure out how to get their data into another software.
But I’m afraid it’s an unlikely scenario. It will probably just be abandoned , then at one point it wouldn’t even be downloadable.
I have no idea how I would get some of the massive documents I built over years ( decades even in the case of Tinderbox/Curio/Devonthink ) into other compatible apps. It’s just not going to happen. Maybe the Curio docs could be exported as limited PDFs then reconstructed ( over weeks ? months?) into something like OneNote . I also have no idea how I can rebuild Tinderbox maps anywhere else…
Only Obsidian seems enough bullet-proof in case of extinction. Any of the apps ( and a lot of others ) I mentioned could become extinct at any moment. This made me really reconsider the use of these types of apps. Their idiosyncrasies are exactly what make them unique and powerful, yet they are also their Achilles heel, because the way the data is presented and structured makes it nearly impossible to be reconstructed somewhere else, no matter what export format they use ( HTML, OPML, JSON, etc.).
So what to do ? Use only apps from big companies like Apple or Microsoft , that are unlikely to disappear in the short/medium term ? That would be a shame, as the most creative apps come from small indie devs. Or use only apps that are built as much as possible on standards like Markdown ( Obsidian ). Or … just live dangerously…
What are your thoughts on this ?
Posted by Graham Rhind
Jun 9, 2025 at 09:39 AM
Yes, this is a constant and recurring theme for me when I consider my workflows and data security. I’ve experienced a lot of hassle over the years, with programs such as Ariadne, ConnectedText, WhizFolders and DocxManager being abandoned or just suddenly no longer working. And, like you, I have never been able to smoothly import the data into a new application even when the format is fairly standard, such as docx or html. There has always been a need to tweak. It took me a year to get my largest project into ConnectedText and then recently 2 months to get a slim-lined version of that project into RightNote. But again, as you say, often the best software for my needs is from small independent developers, so the risks are high.
I try to pick up on signals that a developer is moving towards abandonment - bugs not being investigated, forum posts being ignored and so on - and act accordingly. This is by no means fool proof! I avoid programs that work only online or depend on somebody else’s servers to operate. For one project I duplicate all work in two programs as the chances of both going under at the same time is small (and also, as one is Microsoft Word, the chances of it outliving me are high). For other data I have a system of exporting to standard formats at regular intervals so that the amount of data I would lose if it stopped working would always be limited. That’s a lot of extra work, though, as my data is scattered around a lot of different programs. I try to reduce that number to simplify my life, but that also increases the impact if any of the programs used get abandoned. Sometimes I choose software from a vendor which I know is unlikely to stop supporting it, such as OneNote.
I would also be interested to know how others tackle this perennial issue.
Posted by Stephen Zeoli
Jun 9, 2025 at 01:08 PM
[Note: There are no answers in what follows; just musings on the topic of data portability.]
Not telling you anything you don’t know, but information comes in a variety of formats. When I bought my first PC over 40 years ago, the first software I purchased was a flat file database. I transcribed the list of books I’d read, which I had recorded in a composition notebook. I’ve been adding to the list for 40 years now. It has followed me to at least a dozen computers and in as many different applications, always exporting to a CSV file to be imported into the new application. Knock on wood, I’ve never lost any data from this list. Today it resides in Airtable.
I know there is nothing instructive about this example, as a CSV file is about as basic as it gets. I think the reality is that if you want to take advantage of some of the great features in the more artesian applications, you’re going to be vulnerable to losing your data someday. But then, having an established company involved is no guarantee. I remember when Symantec bought out my favorite app of all time, Grandview, then promptly killed it. The same is true for when Netmanage took over EccoPro. The truth is that anytime an app is handed from the primary developer to another, there’s a good chance it is already doomed. Not always, but usually. Even Obsidian has its vulnerabilities, especially if you rely on any third-party plug-ins, which are as vulnerable as any of these specialty apps—or so it seems to me.
The good news is that some of these artesian applications do hang on for a long time. Tinderbox has been going strong for over 25 years. Curio for almost 20. Same for Scrivener. Zoot has been around 30 years.
It’s rare that even a discontinued app will just stop working (unless it is strictly web-based), which gives you time to do what you can to bring as much of your work as possible into a new app. I suspect the best that you can do in a lot of cases is bring static PDFs into the new app, especially if the data is visual rather than textual.
In my experience, manipulating the data in these visual apps is where the value comes in. That is, thinking things through while building the maps, is where I get most of the benefit of using the app. So maybe there is some solace in the fact that you’ve already gotten good value from the now-abandoned application. And if you need to rebuild the map in a new app, it is a new opportunity to re-examine your efforts and perhaps develop new insights.
Steve Z.
Posted by JDS
Jun 9, 2025 at 05:27 PM
My recollection of what happened to the developer of ConnectedText is that he had a bad bicycle accident. He made some initial assurances that he would get back to ConnectedText, but never did. One can only sympathize with his plight. I mention this as an example of how random events can hit. There are no guarantees that you can rely on a small shop continuing or winding down in a way that protects your data, no matter how ethical the developers are.
Posted by Andy Brice
Jun 9, 2025 at 06:34 PM
>So what to do ? Use only apps from big companies like Apple or Microsoft , that are unlikely to disappear in the short/medium term ?
In my experience big companies kill off products as often as small companies, if not more so. Google is famous for killing products.
For longevity:
* Downloadable software beats web software. Web software dies the second the vendor turns off their server. Downloadable software might keep going for decades.
* Windows applications beat Mac applications. Microsoft puts a lot of effort into backward compatibility. Apple nukes their entire ecosystem from orbit every few years.
* Choose software that uses (or can export to) an text based standard format, such as CSV.
As a vendor I hope to keep my applications available to customers for some years after I stop selling them, if I possibly can.
And, if you are having to reshape/reformat data to move it from application to another, maybe consider my Easy Data Transform software. ;0)
https://www.easydatatransform.com