I decided to start posting here any new Roam alternatives I run across in that never ending quest for the ultimate knowledge management solution.

This one was posted at Hacker News:
Open-Source Memex – Alternative Approach to Roam/Obsidian (www.steveliu.co)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24572449

Proof of Concept is here - https://www.steveliu.co/memex

I find this to be very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for posting.

Re memex: Looks interesting & has roam features, graph + markdown etc. Plus he's getting the basics right as must haves: privacy, local version, etc.

Not the usual subscription based apps storing our data into the dev's basement server & their small-print legal jargon that could mean he (part) owns our data & can sell it to whoever whenever.

Memex: Never mind tracking web browsing behavior (lingering, hovering, inter linking.... Pages), the problems he's trying to tackle: mountain of personal data & how to track & store & organize & retrieve & present optimally, are gigantic in themselves. Wish him good luck. Wonder if he has to prioritize a few features first, or it'll be too much for any single person to achieve.

Please post other new developments in this genre in this thread. Hope others do too.
Thanks again.

This is not a new tool post but a shoutout from MacSparky (Dave Sparks) concerning Roam and Obsidian. I agree!

"This influx of cross-linking, dynamic referencing, and the linkable chaos that these apps create feel, to me, like something entirely new, and that bell is not going to get unrung. Not only do I expect these apps to push further ahead with these tools, but I also anticipate other apps to develop in the same direction. A year from now, we are going to have some fantastic options.

One of the best parts of being enthusiastic about technology is when I witness something fundamentally change. I can’t help but think that is happening right now in the research and notes space."

https://www.macsparky.com/blog/2020/9/research-is-about-to-get-way-more-interesting

Great read, thanks! I remember being excited by an article I read about Tinderbox, and its "agents" running around finding all these connections. But I never invested in that. So, are YOU finding this a game changer, as an academic?

The technology of Roam or Obsidian is not new -- the developers are using existing off the shelf components. What's "new" is that the business of linking "notes" (or something more granular within a note) is bringing broader awareness of the uses of hypertext theory and information theory dating back decades.

The question that fascinates me about all this "new" interest is "why now -- what changed". Obsidian or Roam could have been written a decade or more ago. And if then, they probably didn't generate much interest. (How many people bought Storyspace when it was first published 33 years ago -- Storyspace then, and now, has the same goal as these new toys.)

I read in Obsidian's forums very detailed posts about ZKs, PKMs, and MOCs, and PARA and blah blah. Underlying the efforts behind these trends seems to be a general feeling of being overwhelmed by "information" (or data, really -- it's just data) and trying to make connections between "everything I think about .. everything I read ... everything I worry about". It's seductive.

The technology of Roam or Obsidian is not new -- the developers are using existing off the shelf components. What's "new" is that the business of linking "notes" (or something more granular within a note) is bringing broader awareness of the uses of hypertext theory and information theory dating back decades.

The question that fascinates me about all this "new" interest is "why now -- what changed". Obsidian or Roam could have been written a decade or more ago. And if then, they probably didn't generate much interest. (How many people bought Storyspace when it was first published 33 years ago -- Storyspace then, and now, has the same goal as these new toys.)

I read in Obsidian's forums very detailed posts about ZKs, PKMs, and MOCs, and PARA and blah blah. Underlying the efforts behind these trends seems to be a general feeling of being overwhelmed by "information" (or data, really -- it's just data) and trying to make connections between "everything I think about .. everything I read ... everything I worry about". It's seductive.

Thanks! FYI - I'm not an academic - more like a digital pack rat! Actually, I'm a retired technologist (30 + years of IT projects, support and management). I always kept notebook/journals of information I found interesting or useful for my job. Until the day, many years ago, I started using the first version of Microsoft OneNote (on a very clunky tablet PC). I still keep notebook/journals and have used every single version of OneNote since then. I run a Mac environment at home and although I still love OneNote I'm trying to branch out to other products. I tried EverNote but then moved on to DEVONthink (which has a pretty steep learning curve). The journey continues .... !

"The question that fascinates me about all this “new” interest is “why now—what changed”. " .... Exactly!
IMHO: think one indicator is the sheer volume of data people want to track and research is growing too fast for the current toolsets to keep up.

Paul Korm wrote:

The technology of Roam or Obsidian is not new -- the developers are
using existing off the shelf components. What's "new" is that the
business of linking "notes" (or something more granular within a note)
is bringing broader awareness of the uses of hypertext theory and
information theory dating back decades.

The question that fascinates me about all this "new" interest is "why
now -- what changed". Obsidian or Roam could have been written a
decade or more ago. And if then, they probably didn't generate much
interest. (How many people bought Storyspace when it was first
published 33 years ago -- Storyspace then, and now, has the same goal as
these new toys.)

I read in Obsidian's forums very detailed posts about ZKs, PKMs, and
MOCs, and PARA and blah blah. Underlying the efforts behind these
trends seems to be a general feeling of being overwhelmed by
"information" (or data, really -- it's just data) and trying to make
connections between "everything I think about .. everything I read ...
everything I worry about". It's seductive.

I think there is also an element that people have always wanted to be able to see which notes they have made that relate to other notes they have made. The Zettelkasten idea is extremely powerful. What these new applications add is the behind the scenes connections. I keep making notes and the software connects the ideas. When I click on one note I can immediately see all other notes that link to this topic. Many used to do this with wikis but they became cumbersome to maintain. Even the venerable Tinderbox requires too much coding to make this happen for the average punter.

I do think there is a definite information overload. Do I really need to track every breakfast I've had? Or for that matter every thought I've had?

The big issue for me is that if you're long enough in the tooth you may have amassed quite a mound of information and it's having it all in one place in something that allows ease of creation plus ease of finding what you need when you need it. I CRIMP less these days as I'm tired of transferring information (it's easy to lose creation dates, tags, labels and contexts) and worse I hate it if I have to look in 5 different apps for that note I made.

My best discovery this past year is Foxtrot Pro search. I moved all my data out of DEVONthink and it now sits in folders and Foxtrot serves up what I need in second. I'm slowly building my own repository in my own folders, which also means it's easy to migrate should the need arise (and at Apple's continuing extortionate prices, this may be a reality). I have way too many proprietary documents that need conversion to a more open format, but with a solid file naming convention and a good search, I'm fairly happy. Apps like Obsidian are more for shorter notes than meeting minutes, or perhaps apps for developing ideas and processing through data.

Ditto for FoxTrot Pro, for identical reasons: less app-dependency, more flexibility. Similarly, I’ve moved away from favourites like Ulysses and Scrivener to markdown apps for all my notekeeping. This also, of course, means you can mix and match stuff – so I use NotePlan to manage a lot of info, but I also index the info with FoxTrot Pro, meaning I can correlate it with other info I don’t keep in NotePlan. Ditto Notebooks (where I keep a lot of PDFs) and Bear (where I keep a lot of exfiltrated web pages) – again, I can use FoxTrot Pro to index those data repositories too, in various combinations with other repositories.

I love the idea of Roam, Obsidian (and the Life Notes beta I’m currently testing), but in the end, I find that FoxTrot Pro delivers more useful info more quickly than any of these cross-linked apps, especially with regular expressions and the relatively new ability (in version 7.0) to refine searches.

The most direct comparison on Windows would be DT-Search for Desktop, although the web version (much more expensive) is cross-platform. FoxTrot doesn’t unfortunately feature a web version – I wish it did!

This discussion brings to mind a program Apple shipped with the early Macintosh (I believe, in 1987) called HyperCard. I haven't heard much about Hypercard for many years, but I have thought about it periodically as I learn more about these new programs. It seems to me that the potential of Hypercard, which I hadn't really thought of at the time, is being realized in programs such as Obsidian, Roam, and others. I use Dynalist a lot, and am seriously considering Obsidian.

Daly

bartb wrote:

"The question that fascinates me about all this “new”
interest is “why now—what changed”. " .... Exactly!
IMHO: think one indicator is the sheer volume of data people want to
track and research is growing too fast for the current toolsets to keep
up.

Paul Korm wrote:
The technology of Roam or Obsidian is not new -- the developers are
>using existing off the shelf components. What's "new" is that the
>business of linking "notes" (or something more granular within a note)
>is bringing broader awareness of the uses of hypertext theory and
>information theory dating back decades.
>
>The question that fascinates me about all this "new" interest is "why
>now -- what changed". Obsidian or Roam could have been written a
>decade or more ago. And if then, they probably didn't generate much
>interest. (How many people bought Storyspace when it was first
>published 33 years ago -- Storyspace then, and now, has the same goal
as
>these new toys.)
>
>I read in Obsidian's forums very detailed posts about ZKs, PKMs, and
>MOCs, and PARA and blah blah. Underlying the efforts behind these
>trends seems to be a general feeling of being overwhelmed by
>"information" (or data, really -- it's just data) and trying to make
>connections between "everything I think about .. everything I read ...
>everything I worry about". It's seductive.
>
>

Hmm ... HyperCard. That's actually a pretty good analogy! HyperCard is long gone .... but there are plenty of alternatives .... https://hypercard.org

Daly de Gagne wrote:

This discussion brings to mind a program Apple shipped with the early
Macintosh (I believe, in 1987) called HyperCard. I haven't heard much
about Hypercard for many years, but I have thought about it periodically
as I learn more about these new programs. It seems to me that the
potential of Hypercard, which I hadn't really thought of at the time, is
being realized in programs such as Obsidian, Roam, and others. I use
Dynalist a lot, and am seriously considering Obsidian.

Daly

bartb wrote:
"The question that fascinates me about all this “new”
>interest is “why now—what changed”. " .... Exactly!
>IMHO: think one indicator is the sheer volume of data people want to
>track and research is growing too fast for the current toolsets to keep
>up.
>
>Paul Korm wrote:
>The technology of Roam or Obsidian is not new -- the developers are
>>using existing off the shelf components. What's "new" is that the
>>business of linking "notes" (or something more granular within a note)
>>is bringing broader awareness of the uses of hypertext theory and
>>information theory dating back decades.
>>
>>The question that fascinates me about all this "new" interest is "why
>>now -- what changed". Obsidian or Roam could have been written a
>>decade or more ago. And if then, they probably didn't generate much
>>interest. (How many people bought Storyspace when it was first
>>published 33 years ago -- Storyspace then, and now, has the same goal
>as
>>these new toys.)
>>
>>I read in Obsidian's forums very detailed posts about ZKs, PKMs, and
>>MOCs, and PARA and blah blah. Underlying the efforts behind these
>>trends seems to be a general feeling of being overwhelmed by
>>"information" (or data, really -- it's just data) and trying to make
>>connections between "everything I think about .. everything I read ...
>>everything I worry about". It's seductive.
>>
>>

Thanks Simon! You've given me a lot to think about concerning file formats and using multiple apps to store data. I thought DEVONthink might be a good solution for me (and still might be). But I never considered a Foxtrot Search type approach. I need to explore this option more.

Simon wrote:

I think there is also an element that people have always wanted to be
able to see which notes they have made that relate to other notes they
have made. The Zettelkasten idea is extremely powerful. What these new
applications add is the behind the scenes connections. I keep making
notes and the software connects the ideas. When I click on one note I
can immediately see all other notes that link to this topic. Many used
to do this with wikis but they became cumbersome to maintain. Even the
venerable Tinderbox requires too much coding to make this happen for the
average punter.

I do think there is a definite information overload. Do I really need to
track every breakfast I've had? Or for that matter every thought I've
had?

The big issue for me is that if you're long enough in the tooth you may
have amassed quite a mound of information and it's having it all in one
place in something that allows ease of creation plus ease of finding
what you need when you need it. I CRIMP less these days as I'm tired of
transferring information (it's easy to lose creation dates, tags, labels
and contexts) and worse I hate it if I have to look in 5 different apps
for that note I made.

My best discovery this past year is Foxtrot Pro search. I moved all my
data out of DEVONthink and it now sits in folders and Foxtrot serves up
what I need in second. I'm slowly building my own repository in my own
folders, which also means it's easy to migrate should the need arise
(and at Apple's continuing extortionate prices, this may be a reality).
I have way too many proprietary documents that need conversion to a more
open format, but with a solid file naming convention and a good search,
I'm fairly happy. Apps like Obsidian are more for shorter notes than
meeting minutes, or perhaps apps for developing ideas and processing
through data.

Came across an app in the Zettelkasten Forum. This is the link to the discussion:

https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/1407/kokoro-app

And this a link to the app called 心 Kokoro:

https://www.kokoro.app

Thanks for posting. Kokoro seems like another interesting project in this space.

Thanks for posting!

Darren McDonald wrote:

Came across an app in the Zettelkasten Forum. This is the link to the
discussion:

https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/1407/kokoro-app

And this a link to the app called 心 Kokoro:

https://www.kokoro.app

Lots of alternatives these days. Amazing how dated OneNote looks, too. It's a shame Microsoft didn't pursue it more aggressively.

I agree. I currently use OneNote on the Mac and it has never had full feature parity with the Windows version. IMHO Excel and OneNote were the best applications MS ever made. But OneNote never did seem to get much love from its parent.

Amontillado wrote:

Lots of alternatives these days. Amazing how dated OneNote looks, too.
It's a shame Microsoft didn't pursue it more aggressively.

Meanwhile, back to Roam-ing software:

there’s some passionate enthusiasm for Obsidian over on Effective Remote Work (https://effectiveremotework.com including a dedicated course and tips on creating an Obsidian equivalent on iOS.

It’s growing on me, I must say – some lovely programming in there.

Cheers,
Bill

bartb wrote:

IMHO Excel and OneNote were the
best applications MS ever made. But OneNote never did seem to get much
love from its parent.

100% agree. OneNote was a revelation to me in 2008. That was back in the golden years when desktop software could be expected to keep gaining powerful features instead of just 'ease-of-use' features. So I watched in dismay for over a decade as OneNote just became 'more accessible' to the masses by becoming more slick but less powerful.

It does make me appreciate Excel even more as a platform that didn't become watered down for greater market-share. It's pretty unique in that 95% of its users just use it for the gridlines yet power users can push it as hard as they want. It's hard to think of another application that can straddle that fence so well.

Now software tends to be designed for the most common use case only with no power-user options. I feel like that's been the influence Apple has had on the tech world. They mastered 'slick and simple for the average user' with amazing growth results and the other big players are copying that. Those of us who want more out of our software can no longer look to the big players to fulfill that need. That's why I love this forum.

Microsoft hasn't added any OneNote power features in the past 10 years besides forcing everyone to store their notebooks on their cloud and tweak their interface to make it look a little cleaner. But the options you have to organize, tag, and link your notes remains the same if not worse.

I'm on this forum because of OneNote as it was the gateway drug to CRIMPing. It was OneNote that showed me how wonderful it was to tag my own content, to link between it, and leverage inline tables and collapsible outlines to give a ton of depth and flexibility. Fast-forward a decade and it's not even trying to play in that sandbox.

I'm annoyed that OneNote and Evernote have abandoned power users...as I always thought we were the best evangelists. I've gotten dozens of people to use OneNote over the years. But marketing departments have apparently concluded that it isn't worth the investment to cater to users like us. Forget the tagging system, better to put those resources into offering new pen pallets to appeal to college doodle-bugs.

Excel is for everyone, from the most casual user to the geekiest. In that way it's a unicorn.
Notion is the Excel of the PKM world right now. It's accessible to everyone with big depth for geeks.
OneNote in 2007 was for everyone...but now it's only for casual users.
Roam, and most apps discussed in this forum, is for us.

Thank for posting this item! I'm starting to think that the back-links is the one feature that is setting the world on fire in Roam World!

MadaboutDana wrote:

Meanwhile, back to Roam-ing software:

there’s some passionate enthusiasm for Obsidian over on Effective
Remote Work (https://effectiveremotework.com including a dedicated
course and tips on creating an Obsidian equivalent on iOS.

It’s growing on me, I must say – some lovely
programming in there.

Cheers,
Bill

After 30 + years in Information Technology I have gracefully surrendered to the thought that I will never fully grasp all the thinking that goes into software product development & marketing. I know there are always competing priorities within companies and that markets can be fickle. I'm just determined to stay agile and flexible and avoid the heartbreak of following in love with certain software.

nathanb wrote:

bartb wrote:
>IMHO Excel and OneNote were the
>best applications MS ever made. But OneNote never did seem to get much
>love from its parent.
>

100% agree. OneNote was a revelation to me in 2008. That was back in
the golden years when desktop software could be expected to keep gaining
powerful features instead of just 'ease-of-use' features. So I watched
in dismay for over a decade as OneNote just became 'more accessible' to
the masses by becoming more slick but less powerful.

It does make me appreciate Excel even more as a platform that didn't
become watered down for greater market-share. It's pretty unique in
that 95% of its users just use it for the gridlines yet power users can
push it as hard as they want. It's hard to think of another application
that can straddle that fence so well.

Now software tends to be designed for the most common use case only with
no power-user options. I feel like that's been the influence Apple has
had on the tech world. They mastered 'slick and simple for the average
user' with amazing growth results and the other big players are copying
that. Those of us who want more out of our software can no longer look
to the big players to fulfill that need. That's why I love this forum.

Microsoft hasn't added any OneNote power features in the past 10 years
besides forcing everyone to store their notebooks on their cloud and
tweak their interface to make it look a little cleaner. But the options
you have to organize, tag, and link your notes remains the same if not
worse.

I'm on this forum because of OneNote as it was the gateway drug to
CRIMPing. It was OneNote that showed me how wonderful it was to tag my
own content, to link between it, and leverage inline tables and
collapsible outlines to give a ton of depth and flexibility.
Fast-forward a decade and it's not even trying to play in that sandbox.

I'm annoyed that OneNote and Evernote have abandoned power users...as I
always thought we were the best evangelists. I've gotten dozens of
people to use OneNote over the years. But marketing departments have
apparently concluded that it isn't worth the investment to cater to
users like us. Forget the tagging system, better to put those resources
into offering new pen pallets to appeal to college doodle-bugs.

Excel is for everyone, from the most casual user to the geekiest. In
that way it's a unicorn.
Notion is the Excel of the PKM world right now. It's accessible to
everyone with big depth for geeks.
OneNote in 2007 was for everyone...but now it's only for casual users.
Roam, and most apps discussed in this forum, is for us.

bartb wrote:

After 30 + years in Information Technology I have gracefully surrendered
to the thought that I will never fully grasp all the thinking that goes
into software product development & marketing. I know there are always
competing priorities within companies and that markets can be fickle.
I'm just determined to stay agile and flexible and avoid the heartbreak
of following in love with certain software.

Same. I don't necessarily blame Microsoft and Evernote's direction as they are kind of at the mercy of catering to their huge install base. And if making their product do the basics more gracefully helps the 'average user' then their decisions probably have a more positive impact on the world than what I'd rather see them do.

I just grew up with software being used by nerds, not normies. In that time every 'update' came with more functionality. Now most updates are about user interface or performance improvements. It used to be that if you liked a program but wish it could do just a little more, all you'd have to do is wait for feature updates. This is still true for niche software, but I've now accepted that we can't ever expect more capability out of popular software, only 'usability' improvements. 'Usability' almost always means less options for me.

I still catch myself in that mindset, reactively scanning OneNote changelogs for improvements I've waited a decade for. It's just not going to happen and that's ok. I just need to use tools that fit me instead of settling for tools that are designed to be most accessible to the widest possible audience.

As far as updates go, that's what makes niche software fun. Roam is adding really cool power features like monthly now and that's refreshing. Since it's such a wonky product, I can be fairly confident that it'll never be so popular to be forced into shifting all development resources into catering to the typical office user.

I have not seen this mentioned here, but Dendron Notes https://www.dendron.so/ seems pretty interesting.

Like several other projects, this builds on VSCode. That means that it's cross platform. I added the extension to my ARM Chromebook this morning.

The project, at first glance, seems to be fairly popular with introductory videos and a bunch of documentation.

I've not tried to use it for anything yet, so I can't say how well it actually works, but it looks pretty interesting.