We all know the standard format of most two-pane outliners - you have a tree pane that contains names (titles, subjects, etc) of items, arranged in the usual indented hierarchy. You also have an viewer/editor pane which almost always displays the content of one and only one item - the single item that is highlighted in the tree pane.

My question is - do you know of a two-pane outliner that will show the content of more than one item in the editor pane at the same time? For example, the editor pane could show the content of as many items as will fit in the editor pane; or perhaps it could show the content of multiple items if multiple items are highlighted in the tree pane at the same time.

This is part of what I dislike so much about the usual two-pane outliners. I like to divide up my items into small blocks of text - a paragraph, a sentence, a phrase, or even a single word. But in the usual two-paner, I can only see one such small block of text, and I have to move the highlight in the tree constantly to read through my items. All the extra space in the editor pane is wasted.

One program that comes to mind is Noteliner with its navigation pane. The single-pane outliner came first and the navigation pane was added later.

I think that there are many two (and three) pane outliners that could be so much better if they would incorporate this feature. It seems that the gulf between single and dual pane outliners can be bridged fairly easily, so that the resulting program would have the advantages of both types of outliners.

jim

jimspoon wrote:

My question is - do you know of a two-pane outliner that will show the
content of more than one item in the editor pane at the same time?

But in the
usual two-paner, I can only see one such small block of text, and I have
to move the highlight in the tree constantly to read through my items.

This is exactly why I no longer use two-pane outliners for writing (or anything, really, other than The Guide as temporary storage of removed text fragments during editing).

The solutions that I know of to enable you to see multiple and far-away notes in the hierarchy side-by-side with your edit window are:

- Gingko app (https://gingkoapp.com you can do the writing in the 3rd column (which can be exported individually), while you can scroll to any note within the hierarchy in column 1 and 2. (My current favourite.)

- Outline 4D: while it's a single-pane outliner (in outline mode), it has multiple document interface, so you can arrange any number of panes within the main window, displaying either notes only, outline titles and notes, or titles only, in any variation. This offers great flexibility for writing. I used that set-up for about a year, and it works very well. Although I have switched to Gingko for actual writing up, I still copy over the headings into O4D just to better visualise the developing outline hierarchy.

- ConnectedText v. 6: the new floating windows feature. Although you can only do editing in one window at a time, you can open as many floating windows (by simply holding down ALT and clicking on a topic) as you like, and freely position them on your desktop. As I use CT as my notes database, I'm consulting it in my right monitor as I'm writing in the middle monitor in Gingko.

The only dual-pane outliner with MDI that comes to my mind is Sense Editor PRO, but I haven't spent any significant time with that to have an opinion about it. Check out the screenshots:

http://www.silvaelm.co.uk/products-sense-professional-edition.shtml

It sounds a little like you are describing the "scrivenings" view in Scrivener, where the editor will show the contents of selected items as if they were one, longer item. There was an two-pane outliner many years ago that could do this. The name escapes me and it is long dead, unfortunately.

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

It sounds a little like you are describing the "scrivenings" view in
Scrivener, where the editor will show the contents of selected items as
if they were one, longer item.

That also sounds useful, though I presume that if the two or more notes that are selected are a bit longer, they might not be all visible on the monitor at the same time. Or is there another way to do that in Scrivener?

Unless I am misunderstanding your situation, you can do this in WhizFolders. Select a topic and open it in the Advanced Editor. Select another topic and do the same. Initially the topics open as tabbed items in the advanced editor window, but these can be rearranged to suit your needs.

Although I have not used Info Select in a long time, I think that it can do what you are asking as well.

Jon

Jon Polish wrote:

you can do this in
WhizFolders. Select a topic and open it in the Advanced Editor. Select
another topic and do the same. Initially the topics open as tabbed items
in the advanced editor window, but these can be rearranged to suit your
needs.

Indeed. That does seem to give Whizfolders an edge over Scrivener in this regard. I just wish there was a distraction-free writing mode for each and every Whizfolders pane. Even when I remove all the toolbars from all the windows there is still too much distracting "chrome" for my liking (but that might be just personal preference).

As has been mentioned at several occasions here, Citavi has one gathering function, too, as now has CT, but you describe in fact one of the biggest problems with traditional outliners, no editing except by switching forward, back...

But bear in mind that if there are some dozens of people here, some thousands world-wide who use outliners for their work, what do all the other people do? Right, they use Word and some other text processors, which means they use the file system, and on a big screen and with a little macro, they can have open 5 such different text files at the same time, and switch to number 2, to number 4, to number 1... with 1 key, and edit wherever it pleases them.

Which means this minority using outliners is really handicapped by the relative unwillingness of today's outliner developers to create such multi-content view (let alone an editable one), when most people out there are able to create such a thing for themselves, if necessary by opening 5 instances of the same program.

So what in our outliner world should function in a much better way than for "just text processor people", in fact does function rather badly here.

I lately had my stuff in my outliner, left screen, then assembled the bits in MS Works, right screen, did not pay attention to manually saving my work, and after some hours lost 10 pages of highly important and urgent work.

But of course that's always an alternative: Have two screens, or one large one, and then switch between your outliner (material) and your writing program (in Word there should be a "save automatically all other 5 minutes" function), perhaps F10 = your outliner and F11 your text processor. (And this is just for "multiple sources and one target", but perhaps on the target side, you could use MS Word's outlining function, for quicker navigation there.)

jimspoon wrote:

It seems that
the gulf between single and dual pane outliners can be bridged fairly
easily, so that the resulting program would have the advantages of both
types of outliners.

I agree. In my opinion SENSE provides just this bridge. The right pane is a fully functional one-pane outliner; one can even switch off the left--navigation--pane and work just with the right one. The left pane is a fully detailed map of the document, down to paragraph level, providing excellent overview. You can expand/collapse inline text at will through either pane.

In addition, the ViewPoints feature completely liberates one from the order inherent in the document, as it allows one to collect discontinuous parts of the the document (even from non-open documents) and view/edit them together. Note: I have myself not tested this feature extensively yet, but it might be what you want.

More at http://silvaelm.co.uk/products-sense-professional-edition.shtml

Multiple open windows is indeed a beneficial feature for researchers and writers.

EN has this feature, as does:
* WhizFolders
* MyBase
* MyInfo (tho you can only write in the window open in the edit pane - to change in the next version)

Combined with its other writer friendly features, my pick is WizFolders.

Daly

jimspoon wrote:

We all know the standard format of most two-pane outliners - you have a
tree pane that contains names (titles, subjects, etc) of items, arranged
in the usual indented hierarchy. You also have an viewer/editor pane
which almost always displays the content of one and only one item - the
single item that is highlighted in the tree pane.

My question is - do you know of a two-pane outliner that will show the
content of more than one item in the editor pane at the same time? For
example, the editor pane could show the content of as many items as will
fit in the editor pane; or perhaps it could show the content of multiple
items if multiple items are highlighted in the tree pane at the same
time.

This is part of what I dislike so much about the usual two-pane
outliners. I like to divide up my items into small blocks of text - a
paragraph, a sentence, a phrase, or even a single word. But in the
usual two-paner, I can only see one such small block of text, and I have
to move the highlight in the tree constantly to read through my items.
All the extra space in the editor pane is wasted.

One program that comes to mind is Noteliner with its navigation pane.
The single-pane outliner came first and the navigation pane was added
later.

I think that there are many two (and three) pane outliners that could be
so much better if they would incorporate this feature. It seems that
the gulf between single and dual pane outliners can be bridged fairly
easily, so that the resulting program would have the advantages of both
types of outliners.

jim

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

There was an two-pane outliner many years
ago that could do this. The name escapes me and it is long dead,
unfortunately.

You refer to Acute Notes http://www.outlinersoftware.com/archives/viewt/2365

The program has not been developed since 2002 and the website is gone, though you can still be download the file from the like of http://download.cnet.com/AcuteNotes/3000-2074_4-10129515.html

Jim, see my post above for a contemporary solution to this as provided by SENSE, though I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.

It's true, of course, that if (and it usually does) the text runs off the bottom of the page in the scrivenings view, you can't see it. But Scrivener allows you to open other notes in "quick reference panels," and as many of these as you want (or can practically keep on your screen), so you can be referring to other notes as you write. Not 100% sure the Windows version has this feature yet.

Steve Z.

Dr Andus wrote:

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
It sounds a little like you are describing the "scrivenings" view in
>Scrivener, where the editor will show the contents of selected items as
>if they were one, longer item.

That also sounds useful, though I presume that if the two or more notes
that are selected are a bit longer, they might not be all visible on the
monitor at the same time. Or is there another way to do that in
Scrivener?

Thanks, Alexander, for jogging my memory!!!

Steve Z.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
>There was an two-pane outliner many years
>ago that could do this. The name escapes me and it is long dead,
>unfortunately.

You refer to Acute Notes
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/archives/viewt/2365

The program has not been developed since 2002 and the website is gone,
though you can still be download the file from the like of
http://download.cnet.com/AcuteNotes/3000-2074_4-10129515.html

Jim, see my post above for a contemporary solution to this as provided
by SENSE, though I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.

After writing the above, it occured to me that I had left out an important alternative.

I mentioned the "two applications solution", a 2-pane outliner, to the left (left screen of two, or left part of a large screen), for your "material", and a text processor to the right, as "target"; some people here also advocate, as "target", for writing "results", a 1-pane outliner, instead of a text processor. Very good.

The very best solution would be full functionality in two concurrent windows, within your 2-pane outliner, of course, but it's not available - and MyInfo's current solution is not that functional, or call it even illogical, since in most scenarios, you would heavily navigate within your "raw material" items (main content pane, with tree), but not too much edit there, but you would need to write in your "target" pane, where you would just navigate within that pane, but which would need to be editable: As we know, it's the other way round: Your "sources" are editable, your "target" is not. So this intermediate MI solution is rather worthless for the task we are discussing here, but as soon as MI makes this "target" pane (which for now is just a "reference" pane, but without easy navigation between items, so you cannot switch functionality), MI will become the very best solution there is for this task, for some time to come.

But for the alternative mentioned above: Most outliners, even databased ones, permit opening two instances. I hadn't been too much aware of this since my application trigger macros say "open xyz if it's not already running; else, just make it the current application (shift focus to it)".

But of course, you could have open your general MyInfo or Ultra Recall file/database, let's say "UltraRecall - General" (or something like that for its caption), and then, another UR or MI database, called "MyInfo - Target" or something. Now, your general macros would have the scope "MyInfo" (and would apply to any of these databases), and your special switch macros (which you only need if you also switch to and from your browser, Excel or other non-MI applications) would be one macro, "If scope is "MyInfo - General", activate "MyInfo - Target", else if scope is "MyInfo - Target", activate "MyInfo - General", else send Alt-Tab", or if your macro tool doesn't permit such scripting, you'd need two macros, both triggered by the SAME key (!): "Scope MI-General: activate MI-Target", "Scope MI-Target: activate MI-General", and a second key: "send Alt-Tab" (since anyway, pressing Alt-Tab 300 times within a workday is not a good idea to begin with).

So this does show the importance of your macro tool being able to process application scope again, and by "reading" the application name AND some other info within the caption, and then you would have the SAME application, for your data, and for your writing, right on your screen, concurrently, and the same commands would function identically in both instances of this same program/outliner. I think this scenario is best, and if you need it, you could have two macros, two keys, from anywhere, "Go to MI-General", and "Go to MI-Target", from any third-party application, instead of the "send Alt-Tab" macro, which would perhaps function in a too aleatoric way if you regularly switch around between TWO instances of your outliner, and all the other programs you need to work in.

In this scenario, you would have a secondary outliner file with a standardized/fixed name, and which afterwards you would either rename to some individual file name, or re-integrate into your main database. If your macro tool also permits a little bit scripting, you could do it in the way "if scope is MI-General, switch to MI NOT General, else if scope is MI (but not General), switch to MI-General": This will permit you to name your target MI file with its real name. Of course, if you need SEVERAL such target outliner files at the same time, it's a little bit more complicated: Here, you'd need real scripting, together with "identifier of instance last accessed" checking.

Anyway. My point is, don't overactivate your left hand with endless "Alt-Tab", and then multiple "Tab (with Alt held down)" pressings, but have dedicated keys to switch between your standard applications... which could include two instances of the same outliner.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

It's true, of course, that if (and it usually does) the text runs off
the bottom of the page in the scrivenings view, you can't see it. But
Scrivener allows you to open other notes in "quick reference panels,"
and as many of these as you want (or can practically keep on your
screen), so you can be referring to other notes as you write. Not 100%
sure the Windows version has this feature yet.

I couldn't find it in the Windows version, but I just realised that it's possible to right-click on any item and select "Open in Other Editor," which then splits the window and displays the note next to your currently edited or viewed note. So at least you can view two notes at the same time.

Here's a screenshot of the AcuteNotes program that Alexander mentioned.

http://i.imgur.com/o2rQkjs.png

Notice how all the items highlights in the tree pane are displayed in the editor pane, where they can be edited almost as if they were a single item.

The individual items are separated by a thin horizontal line in the editor pane. You can easily cut and paste text from one item to another.

A useful feature that would be nice to have in other outliners too.

thanks as well for pointing out the Sense editor which does even more ... as Alexander says the tree is integrated into the editor pane and it can function as a single-pane outliner. i have been experimenting with it.

Also worth mentioning WinOrganizer and Golden Section Notes (the latter a subset of the former), developed by The Golden Section Labs (tgslabs.com), although they don't appear to have been updated since 2011.

Although the notes element in both apps doesn't exactly display multiple notes' content in a single pane, you can collect multiple notes into a single note, as it were, and then open the individual notes in separate panes. It also has a powerful Inspector feature and supports attached files.

And of course it's also worth reminding people that InfoRecall, UltraRecall, TreeProjects and MyInfo all have an MDI interface, so can display multiple notes horizontally and/or vertically (in the case of TreeProjects, in an impressively wide variety of configurations).

"And of course it’s also worth reminding people that InfoRecall, UltraRecall, TreeProjects and MyInfo all have an MDI interface, so can display multiple notes horizontally and/or vertically (in the case of TreeProjects, in an impressively wide variety of configurations)."

MadaboutDana, could you give some details? I use UR every day, but have not found a way to have two texts, let alone together with their respective sub-trees, open at the same time, except, as described above, from opening two databases concurrently, in two UR instances.

What you say about MDI interface, do you mean when I open UR in two "instances", it's not really two instances? But the effect here is the same: Two different windows, on two different screens (or sided on one large one); of course, those panes can then be moved around, but there is no command purveying from one single UR window, to such an "external" UR pane, so if technically two instances or not, it's always your need to have a look in which UR window you "are", and to which UR window your commands go.

I suppose this is similar with the other programs you mention. Or do I not grasp something important in what you say?

On the other hand, it's


myBase


soon on sale (but in "old" version 6) on bits, that seems to have multiple (and editable) content panes WITHIN ONE instance of the program, or within one framing main window, so for the moment, myBase should be the only real solution to the "editing more than one text pane in one outliner" task we are discussing here?

I just checked again, for UR: It's not possible to freely place the content pane, that's only possible for the "secondary" panes, all those list panes. But even those, you cannot multiply, just place to the other monitor, as with palettes in a graphics program for example. So "MDI", "multiple document interface", might be a technical term, implying possibilities, but if the developer in question does not provide them, makes sufficient use of this technology, inspite of the term, there will be NO "multiple documents"!

Or then, I overlooked something important, but then, all other UR users will have always overlooked these hidden possibilities, too: they CRAVE for this functionality (and some even continue to ask for it).

Technically, you are right: It's just one instance, that closes both windows = both "main frames" by Alt-F4, but you cannot open one UR database in both windows, just different databases, and you switch around by Alt-Tab, as you would do between two instances of the same, or between two different programs, and as said, there is no way to "free" the content pane of the second window, in order to integrate it perhaps into your "main frame". So from the "user experience" point of view, it's like two different instances, when myBase seems to permit multiple open windows in its one and only main window... which also means that the second content pane will be able to show content from within the very same database (judging from their screenshots).

The other outliners you mention, might do this better than UR, but UR is a lost case, here again, and I'm so fed up with it!

I tried again with two UR databases, in order to check if it was possible, as wikipedia claims, to switch between them not only with alt-tab, but with control-tab, too. Not even that is possible, so we can safely delete UR from this list! Again, it's always possible to open two UR databases side by side, in two complete frames, and then switch around as you'd switch around between an outliner and Word, for example.

Perhaps another word re MyInfo, where users await the editability of the second content pane, which would make that pane functional, at last: Years ago, MyInfo was very buggy, and I often encountered "list out of bounds" error messages. Now in their forum, from summer 2013 (mature version 6), "list out of bounds" is mentioned, and the introduction of version 6 came with a plethora of new, unnecessary bugs (but otherwise was a big advantage over version 5). This program is not bad, but it seems its coding standards are not really professional, but too "manual", too "trial and error", too "do something here, do something there", and it's not impossible to loose data with it (I did, and it's mentioned in the forum, lately). In direct comparison, UR is rock-stable, so it's a real pity UR isn't under (what I would call) active development anymore.

Again, what about myBase? Some users here have said it's many good ideas, poorly executed. Perhaps they put some work into that execution, in the meanwhile, to make it better? (Version 6 came out with bugs, too, if I remember well...)

In combination with Jarte (a lightweight text editor), UR can display and edit in multiple windows. Perhaps not what was asked for originally, but it works well for me. For me, UR is great for information management. WhizFolders excels (for me) at writing assignments.

Jon

Sorry! Yes, quite right, mea culpa, UltraRecall isn't an MDI program (although it does support multiple instances). All the others are (I checked!). I always confuse UltraRecall with the much older - and in terms of interface, clunkier - InfoRecall. The latter is quite powerful, however, so shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

@MadaboutDana
Well, it is, from wikipedia's terminology, since it has got tabbing, and this is one of the subgroups of MDI - but as said, the developers could have done this much better, with the technology they have in hands, and in fact it's all about avoiding to switch between several tabs: Being able to look at source and target at the same time, is quite different, by the "user experience"! InfoRecall, UltraRecall, InfoSelect... and don't search for "Tree" - Zoot, and some others are the only ones clearly distinguishable for the non-daily-user.

Of course, I'm thinking about Zoot and when it will perhaps become this functionality?

@Jon Polish
"In combination with Jarte (a lightweight text editor), UR can display and edit in multiple windows."

Could you explain this? If you happened to replace the bad, gratis MS editor UR uses, by Jarte, this will interest UR forum users (but does have Jarte rtf?). How do you do it? Or do you mean referencing external files (of Jarte or other text processors) from with the UR tree? That would indeed not be the same thing.

22111 wrote:

@Jon Polish
"In combination with Jarte (a lightweight text editor), UR can display
and edit in multiple windows."

Could you explain this? If you happened to replace the bad, gratis MS
editor UR uses, by Jarte, this will interest UR forum users (but does
have Jarte rtf?). How do you do it? Or do you mean referencing external
files (of Jarte or other text processors) from with the UR tree? That
would indeed not be the same thing.

Jarte is being used as an external editor for both stored and linked documents. Unfortunately, Jarte cannot be opened under IE, so UR will not use Jarte as an embedded program. So yes, it is not the same thing, although it approximates it for my purposes.

Jon

Thank you, Jon. So (and if I understand correctly), any second program could be loaded, with a file referenced in the UR tree; the advantage here would be that the external file would be readily accessible, instead of searching for it in the file system.

@developers: It's not really difficult. Just have a rightclick-command and key command (the same, alternatively) for "open in second pane", so that the first item/pane will not be affected/replaced (neither the selection of that first item in the tree), and then, a default setting could divide the text/content pane vertically (technically, it would be TWO content panes, each one linked to a different recordfield) (and by option, horizontally; bigger/smaller with mouse), and the second pane could be moved independently from the main frame (as with all the tree/list/additional panes in UR); if you move it, the original pane will get its original size again. So on the technical side, you only need another buffer, holding the content of the second content pane (independent or sharing the original content pane's frame).

Then, any "GENERAL" command will only work upon the current item and its content, the one selected within the tree. It would just be the right-click menu within the "additional" pane that would have some other commands: Save, CloseAndSave, CloseAndAbandon, RevertToOriginal(without closing); those commands should also be available by menu/keyboard (why not add an additional menu entry to the general menu, "Second" for "second pane", disappearing when the second pane is closed?). And of course, when focus is in the additional pane, EDITING commands will work upon that secondary content. And a special command (perhaps control-tab or such) would switch focus between first content pane and second content pane. And if the developer want to make it perfect, he could not only show the second item's title within the caption of the secondary frame, but also provide a command "in tree, go to the item of the second pane"; whenever the second pane is displayed, and you do the "open in second pane" command, a dialog would open for your choosing first what to do with the current content of that second pane: "Save and replace" or "Abandon and replace". And there is no problem with the "save second" command for it updating the respective recordfield within the record of that "second" item of which the ID is stored, for the session, in some variable - technically, for such a system, there is no difficulty whatsoever to distinguish between the "current item" and its content and some "secondary item's content (which as said would logically be the target in most cases, and when you will switch between various sources, within the "first item" universe, at the same time.

The whole coding for all this, all details included, would take 1 day, and I know what I'm speaking of. So much for MyInfo having had a "read-only" second pane for two years or so now, and so much for Ultra Recall which in about 15 years did not bother to get such a second pane.

1 day of coding, and we are asking for too much, though.

No further comment, as Kühn regularly says in his instructive blog.