Anyone keeping up with Roam? After its initial flurry of attention and the ensuing backlash (based in part if I remember correctly on some poorly-received public utterances), it seems to be chugging along. As one of the many who can't install software on their work computers, I remain kindly interested in programs allowing the use of a web browser and syncing with an installation on another computer. I understand that there are data ownership and security issues, but it's hard to avoid those if information can't be stored on one of the computers that uses it.

I keep hoping that Logseq's database version would solve this for me, but I can't find a ballpark ETA (and I may be past my prime for doing what it takes to adopt that system).

Thanks for any insights you can share.

Roam Research has been maturely nicely. Although I know there is some understandable skepticism of AI on this forum, it's perhaps worth noting that the "Live AI" extension for Roam Research is extremely capable, and can converse with outlines and even make edits from the chat using the model of your choice. (You have to add your own API key---I first made the mistake of adding a Claude key but not adding funding on the Claude API page.) Although the extension isn't exactly beginner-friendly, this capability sets Roam apart as perhaps the only true outliner with robust, in-app, editing-capable AI chat (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I've been using Roam since the early days, and I find it a stable and mature product.

I'm a basic user, I'm probably just using 10% of what it's capable of.

But I do use it every day, in fact it's the first page I open in the morning, as it's automatic Daily Notes page reminds me what I've planned ahead for the given day, and it also serves as a record of what I've accomplished during each day (and then week, and month, and year).

It has emerged as a powerful way of managing memory and personal history, and as a planning tool.

I'm aware that other software now can also do this, but there is a certain ease of use with the way wiki links and date links and automatic backlinks are created that made me stick with it (and also the cross-platform function).

The mobile app is kind of slow, I prefer to just open the page in a browser, and even then it takes a while for it to load, but that's a compromise I can live with, if I get access to my graph on the go.

I'm also a WorkFlowy user, which now also has some of these features, but I still prefer to use Roam for the daily task management, and WorkFlowy for tracking and developing longer-term projects, or for ad hoc outlining and breaking down and accomplishing tasks.

I also use Obsidian for different purposes, such as writing and storing longer documents, including a diary.

Probably one could just use one of these tools for all of these functions, but I enjoy the particular strengths of each of these software and also I don't necessarily trust them equally with all of my data.

I don't claim to be a particularly productive person but these three tools (in combination with Google Calendar) help me deal with the complexities of managing my personal, family, and work life in this day and age.

Very helpful, thanks. I use Obsidian a lot, and it wasn't too bad importing its data into Roam (although massaging it for Roam will be an ongoing project). I have been using Tana since its early days and think it's great, but increasingly find it best for power users -- I've fallen into the dreaded CRIMPer's habit of spending more time customizing it than I am working with it. Roam and Logseq seem to be best at linking to/embedding individual blocks, which is a feature I really like -- it helps me knit together the most relevant parts of longer articles, etc., about a topic. That helps keep me from continuing to accrue information about a topic that I'll never use because the amount has become unwieldy to work with.

exatty95 wrote:

I have been using Tana since its early days and think
it's great, but increasingly find it best for power users -- I've fallen
into the dreaded CRIMPer's habit of spending more time customizing it
than I am working with it.

I looked into Tana a few times but I found it too taxing on the brain to have to think of all the possibilities that the architecture allows.

Roam just allows me to function as a basic user, using just a few key features that I really like.

Roam and Logseq seem to be best at linking
to/embedding individual blocks, which is a feature I really like -- it
helps me knit together the most relevant parts of longer articles, etc.,
about a topic. That helps keep me from continuing to accrue information
about a topic that I'll never use because the amount has become unwieldy
to work with.

Yes, the various embedding and linking functions are very helpful. On Mondays for instance I create a list of objectives for that week, and then I embed the weekly list in the daily pages of that week, and then every day I am reminded of what I still need to do (and can select activities to schedule for that day) and also see visually what I've already accomplished that week.

As a former fairly devoted-if-unskilled Tinderbox user (its Mac-only status reduced its use when I moved to a Windows-based job), I find Tana's supertags/fields approach to be much easier to implement effectively than Tinderbox's attributes. I know that Logseq has attributes/properties, and Roam may too, but I haven't figured those out yet

Good (important) point. If Tinderbox were being born today, it would be Tana.

exatty95 wrote:

I find Tana's supertags/fields approach to be much easier to implement
effectively than Tinderbox's attributes.

Paul Korm wrote:

If Tinderbox were being born today, it would be Tana.

Isn't there now an increased risk that Tana Outliner has a limited shelf-life, especially once the new Tana is financially viable?

Simon wrote:

Isn't there now an increased risk that Tana Outliner has a limited shelf-life, especially once the new Tana is financially viable?

Yes, I think so. I've curtailed any further use of Tana Outliner, though I kept my subscription as a hedge. (Maybe a foolish hedge.) I tried the "new Tana", but find no use for it since frequent collaboration and meetings is not my profile any more. I don't understand why a company with a reported $25million capitalization (i.e., chump change) would go against Zoom, Teams, Webex, etc., with a product that appears to have a minimal feature set. The final subscription cost for "new" Tana isn't public, as far as I know.

And there's the not-inconsiderable price for the new version of Tana -- $240/yr ( on a yearly basis, at the early bird price). I'm also stuck in a squeeze with Tana Outliner -- my renewal is very soon, and I don't view the product as having a long shelf life, but I have to go somewhere. At my age and stage, I want something that has demonstrated some staying power. That's why I'm considering Roam and Remnote (in addition to Obsidian, which I also use but I find less easy to work with for emergent connections, and also seems to be page-based rather than block-based as I would prefer). I had hopes for Logseq, but its redevelopment has taken so long and it doesn't seem to be getting any easier to use.

exatty95 wrote:

Anyone keeping up with Roam? After its initial flurry of attention and the ensuing backlash (based in part if I remember correctly on some poorly-received public utterances), it seems to be chugging along.

Chugging, limping... po-ta-to, po-tah-to. For its first few years founder Conor was unfiltered and combative on Twitter and elsewhere, engaging in feuds with tech influencers and productivity experts like Tiago Forte (before he ate crow and mended fences), as well as anyone who critizized the app. Obnoxious founder hype and childishness and high pricing ran into slowed development and the unexpected quick rise of alternatives (many free) that have since eclipsed it.

When people asked for normal updates, product roadmaps on improved security or a functional mobile app etc, Conor was dismissive and often publicly contemptuous. Conor mocked the idea of feature roadmaps.

Conor stoked the juvenile 'RoamCult' hashtag which initially drove attention and growth but grew insular, elilist, toxic and sometimes hostile. In fact one of our regulars here, Dr Andrus, was (is?) a Roam user but was banned from the subreddit in 2021 for posting some questions and constructive criticism that were not up to snuff for the cult. He in fact was a big fan of the app and recommended it publicly but it wasn't enough.

That subreddit scrubbed post histories going back years that pointed out app shortcomings or positively mentioned competitors like Obsidian. Even users who'd paid for the $500 5-year 'Believer' plan were banned from the community. This event, and others like it at the time, drove a number of users straight into the arms of Obsidian and Logseq, with some users worried that upsetting the company could lose them access to their data.

In case you're thinking that Roam had nothing to do with the shenanigans in the subreddit, Conor himself discussed "...the actions I personally took last week (banning a dozen or more accounts from the subreddit) before we had time and mental energy to actually articulate the rules." His actions, which he freely admitted to, damaged the company's relationship with early adopters and without doubt affected its reputation and sales.

Roam really thought it had something special and no real competition, and pre-pandemic instituted pricing that was somewhat outrageous at the time. And somewhat surprisingly, after receiving a $9 million funding round (as a quarter-billion-dollar valuation, IIRC) development slowed significantly... just as Obsidian and Loqseq started huge growth with an ethos of privacy and data ownership, with communities that welcomed user feedback.

Roam is today seen as an also-ran, with tools like Obsidian and Notion having wrested the mass-market crown, and some contenders like Tana aiming at the cutting edge. Roam's userbase has contracted significantly and Conor seemingly has been put on a short leash by Roam investors. Roam's blocks and filtering are still leading class and the product is still useful for certain workflows but extant competition offers similar capabilities as well as expanded ones Roam can't touch.

Dr. Andrus' posts were the reason I first started watching this forum. Banning his (her? We've never met) brand of thinking would have to be an indicator of a rash actor.

The key to power in knowledge software is largely in the use. The best of them can be replaced with thoughtful application of lesser tools. If, of course, some way can be found to sate the CRIMP demon.

Amontillado wrote:

The best of them can be replaced with thoughtful application of lesser tools.

Like, say, a pen, stack of cards, and a slipbox?

(Interesting, the piles of money and time spent trying to make electrons emulate that concept.)

exatty95 wrote:

At my age and stage, I want something that has demonstrated some staying power.

What about Workflowy? It's been going for 15 years.

There is also Checkvist, which has been around for 18 years. It's basically an outliner with several additional features, although I don't think it does graphs. It has been continually updated and is only $40 per year. I am not endorsing it, because I don't use it, but just wanted to add it to the discussion because it does seem to be a solid outlining product.

https://checkvist.com

Thanks, Workflowy is certainly tried and true. I admire the way it seems to have outlasted Dynalist -- I'm especially glad because the Dynalist creators shifted gears and created Obsidian.

I'm not a fan of the "endless scroll" approach, but I should take another look at it. I know that it has Boards, Mirrors (which I think is its version of transclusion), and other newer features, so maybe it can do the job

exatty95 wrote:

I'm not a fan of the "endless scroll" approach, but I should take another look at it. I know that it has Boards, Mirrors (which I think is its version of transclusion), and other newer features, so maybe it can do the job

It's perfectly possible to use WorkFlowy in a way that doesn't result in "endless scroll". WorkFlowy is very pliable, you can set up multiple different kinds of systems with different workflows within it and switch between them with ease. Probably the main challenge of using it (but it's also its main attraction to me) is that you need to invent your own set-ups, arrangements, structures, workflows.

The way I avoid "endless scroll" is that I think of the WorkFlowy interface as a sea of priorities, with the top level, the very first bullet point, representing the surface of the sea. So whatever is most urgent or most important will rise to the top of the list, and it's easy to use keyboard shortcuts to quickly rearrange priorities.

This means that less important or no longer relevant items slowly (or rapidly) sink below the fold. Yes, it does result in some clutter over time, and once in a while some culling or filing away of items is necessary.

At the same time, while the top of the list is used to get things done, you can have other bullet points that serve as project folders (effectively every bullet point is a project folder or task folder with other items within).

The sliding side panel is also helpful for developing structures or pinning favourites.

I use WorkFlowy alongside Roam, but if I was pushed to it, probably WorkFlowy could replace what I use Roam for, as it now also offers "daily note" topics and a calendar.

I've been subscribing to and using WorkFlowy daily for over a decade, but the total size of my plain text export file is still less than 9 MB. It helped me a lot in retracing steps or finding things years later, when I needed to remember something.

But I'd hate to give up Roam, as nothing has worked as well for daily task management and weekly, monthly and annual forward planning (and also for revisiting the past) as Roam, and I tried many different tools to try to create order out of the chaos of an accumulating cloud of hundreds and thousands of rolling todos.

I've been subscribing to and using WorkFlowy daily for over a decade, but the total size of my plain text export file is still less than 9 MB. It helped me a lot in retracing steps or finding things years later, when I needed to remember something.

9MB for 10+ years is admirable, given what you've reported you gained from the app. Do you prune or consolidate text?

But I'd hate to give up Roam, as nothing has worked as well for daily task management and weekly, monthly and annual forward planning (and also for revisiting the past) as Roam, and I tried many different tools to try to create order out of the chaos of an accumulating cloud of hundreds and thousands of rolling todos.

Have you written about how you manage todos with Roam? I gave up OmniFocus after a decade and use only Apple Reminders for tasks. I found I was overwhelming myself in OF by adding more and more tasks than I could ever accomplish.

Paul Korm wrote:

I found I was overwhelming myself in OF by adding more and more tasks than I could ever accomplish.

That's my issue with digital task managers. I think having everything in one app for easy viewing is actually counter productive.

Paul Korm wrote:

I gave up OmniFocus after a decade and use only Apple Reminders for tasks. I found I was overwhelming myself in OF by adding more and more tasks than I could ever accomplish.

I always found OmniFocus to be overcomplicated overkill for my needs. I used Todoist for many years, but as Apple Reminders became more capable, I migrated to it a couple of years ago. My setup essentially replicates my old Todoist workflow: I use a renamed “Inbox” as a temporary repository for triaging quick-add tasks, and I manage tasks using “do dates” rather than due dates.

I separate out into appropriate folders (lists) actionable tasks from notes/reminders/questions I want surfaced where follow-up may or may not turn into an action (for example: “Did package X arrive?”).

The combination of Apple Reminders and Apple Calendar for time-blocking works really well for me, even though their integration is admittedly more limited than Todoist’s all-in-one approach. I’ve tried many apps that combine notes and tasks, but I keep coming back to the functionality of Reminders plus calendaring for task management.

Logseq, for me, is the ultimate task manager.

I love having my notes, contacts, and tasks in the same app. It allows me to have context for my tasks, which raw lists like Reminders or Todoist never did well.

With proper tagging and filtering, it is quite manageable. And now the new version of the app finally works properly (and syncs properly) on my iPhone. (I hear that Android still needs work.)

They just need better notifications.

Very helpful. Thanks. I'm much more into note-taking and finding existing and emerging connections among my notes than I am in keeping track of tasks. Given that, it's kind of a killer for me if a program does not make it possible for me to import my store of notes from my current applications. Workflowy, and in my experience, a surprising number of other applications in the note-taking space, do not make bulk imports easy if possible at all. With respect to Workflowy, none of my other applications export to the .opml format, so I'm stuck.

Luhmann wrote:

Logseq, for me, is the ultimate task manager.

Until the new version is fully out out of beta, I wouldn't trust my data in logseq.

exatty95 wrote:

Workflowy, and in my experience, a surprising number of other applications in the note-taking space, do not make bulk imports easy if possible at all. With respect to Workflowy, none of my other applications export to the .opml format, so I'm stuck.

So what format are your notes in? Also, have you asked AI to help you move your notes to another application?

I use an adapted version of Ternouth's system and pretty much do all my project and task management on paper.

I have been primarily using Tana and Obsidian, so my notes are generally in Markdown. I thought that gave me the most flexibility and ownership. Remnote is in the running because I could get my notes into it reasonably easily, but nothing I've tried has worked for getting my Obsidian or Tana notes into Logseq. I suppose I could copy my Obsidian files into the current Markdown version of Logseq and then wait until I can switch that over to the database version.

Asking AI is a good thought, thanks. So far I've been Googling the issue.

exatty95 wrote:

Asking AI is a good thought, thanks. So far I've been Googling the issue.

I've solved a lot of problems with ai. If you have access to Claude cowork you can point it to a folder of notes and ask it to convert/process them for you. Obviously make sure this is a copy of your originals, not your originals.

AI needs context. So tell it your OS, your apps your data format, and explain what you need.

I rarely use online search any longer.