Actual Ginkgo user here.

Just chiming in in case Adrian is following the thread and looking for additional experiences with his site.

I love the web version. There is not much new under the sun these days wrt software - it's incredibly unusual to see a new UI concept and this is one. In response to the comment saying we should not treat developers as always deserve praise:

1. Anybody developing and actually *releasing* software who does not have investment backing *does* deserve praise!! It's damn hard and to do it without money coming in is worthy of praise if only for the effort. I spent over a decade in the commercial software industry and had teams of up to 20 people working for me at one point just get a new release out once a year. Anybody doing it by themselves at night after their day jobs and getting it released to the public is basically Rocky Balboa running up the steps of the Philadelphia Museum of Art in my book.

2. Still, I refrain from praising software on here that I don't find useful. But I don't tell them they suck, for the same reason I don't boo local bands who I see in local bars even if they suck. They are putting themselves out there for next to no money and are puttiing in hard work to try to please ME. Booing them is totally classless whether in a club or on an online forum.

3. But in this case, Ginkgo is like a band I think is super innovative and has a really modern sound that I haven't heard before. The web UI is very skillfully done but from what I hear the Desktop version is like the band decided to play a new song they haven't quite learned yet. In that case, I'd give them a pass because I love their other music, and hope the new song is better when I see them next month.

4. The out of touch dad who comes over after the gig to give the lead singer some "business advice" is hilarious. There are so many other factors they have to consider before that even matters. I pay $2 a month for Ginkgo which is about what I'd pay for cover charges for my favorite local band. Yeah, somebody might steal their innovative sound - that's a risk but there is literally no way to avoid it. Microsoft stole its way through the entire 1990s and nobody could ever call them on it. That's another reason that anyone doing something unique is even more worthy of praise and gratitude -- because they do it despite the fact they know some behemoth will probably steal their idea and drive them out of business -- at best hopefully they'll get a VP job out of it at the behemoth.

5. Finally, Stripe is 100% reputable and safe and if you want to buy things from small online web retailers you need to click "next" before determining their payment solution is only on their private domain. That's just the way the web works these days - the payment processor is very often after you click "next." If you just want to shop at Amazon that's cool - enjoy the Kanye West stadium show. But if you want to go to the local bar you might have to pass by a sketchy bouncer before you hear the innovative sound. It makes 100% "business" sense to use whatever is the cheapest option both in direct costs and development costs, which is what it sounds like Adrian is doing.

Nevertheless and possibly contrary to everything above: some hopefully constructive criticism: $45 is too much. And single-license desktop software is dead. The subscription model is way more palatable for customers and way more profitable for developers; and something like Ginkgo on the desktop needs to sync with the web or very few will use it. I'm sure Adrian already knows all that. He'll get the sync working and then charge $4.99 a month for the subscription regardless which clients are being used. At that point Ginkgo will be worth the higher cover charge :)

But I don't tell them they suck, for the same reason I don't boo local bands who I see in local bars even if they suck.

Has anyone done that? Point it out, and I'll agree with you. Always giving praise, never giving criticism (or feedback, if you like), is the surest recipe for mediocrity.

If a developer is charging for software, his customers can most certainly offer feedback, and if it's ignored, complain. Praise optional. Cash is the best praise.

I used to subscribe to online Gingko. Then I realized it lacks an essential feature for long-form writing: collapsible cards. Without collapsible cards, the software has minimal value to me, so I ended my subscription. If the desktop version had collapsible cards, I'd be the first in line to pay $45 for it, even without search and sync and the other things it lacks. This seems like pretty good feedback for the developer. I'd ever wager to say it would help him more than to say nothing and wait for the next song.


dan7000 wrote:

Actual Ginkgo user here.

Just chiming in in case Adrian is following the thread and looking for
additional experiences with his site.

I love the web version. There is not much new under the sun these days
wrt software - it's incredibly unusual to see a new UI concept and this
is one. In response to the comment saying we should not treat developers
as always deserve praise:

1. Anybody developing and actually *releasing* software who does not
have investment backing *does* deserve praise!! It's damn hard and to do
it without money coming in is worthy of praise if only for the effort. I
spent over a decade in the commercial software industry and had teams of
up to 20 people working for me at one point just get a new release out
once a year. Anybody doing it by themselves at night after their day
jobs and getting it released to the public is basically Rocky Balboa
running up the steps of the Philadelphia Museum of Art in my book.

2. Still, I refrain from praising software on here that I don't find
useful. But I don't tell them they suck, for the same reason I don't boo
local bands who I see in local bars even if they suck. They are putting
themselves out there for next to no money and are puttiing in hard work
to try to please ME. Booing them is totally classless whether in a club
or on an online forum.

3. But in this case, Ginkgo is like a band I think is super innovative
and has a really modern sound that I haven't heard before. The web UI is
very skillfully done but from what I hear the Desktop version is like
the band decided to play a new song they haven't quite learned yet. In
that case, I'd give them a pass because I love their other music, and
hope the new song is better when I see them next month.

4. The out of touch dad who comes over after the gig to give the lead
singer some "business advice" is hilarious. There are so many other
factors they have to consider before that even matters. I pay $2 a month
for Ginkgo which is about what I'd pay for cover charges for my favorite
local band. Yeah, somebody might steal their innovative sound - that's a
risk but there is literally no way to avoid it. Microsoft stole its way
through the entire 1990s and nobody could ever call them on it. That's
another reason that anyone doing something unique is even more worthy of
praise and gratitude -- because they do it despite the fact they know
some behemoth will probably steal their idea and drive them out of
business -- at best hopefully they'll get a VP job out of it at the
behemoth.

5. Finally, Stripe is 100% reputable and safe and if you want to buy
things from small online web retailers you need to click "next" before
determining their payment solution is only on their private domain.
That's just the way the web works these days - the payment processor is
very often after you click "next." If you just want to shop at Amazon
that's cool - enjoy the Kanye West stadium show. But if you want to go
to the local bar you might have to pass by a sketchy bouncer before you
hear the innovative sound. It makes 100% "business" sense to use
whatever is the cheapest option both in direct costs and development
costs, which is what it sounds like Adrian is doing.

Nevertheless and possibly contrary to everything above: some hopefully
constructive criticism: $45 is too much. And single-license desktop
software is dead. The subscription model is way more palatable for
customers and way more profitable for developers; and something like
Ginkgo on the desktop needs to sync with the web or very few will use
it. I'm sure Adrian already knows all that. He'll get the sync working
and then charge $4.99 a month for the subscription regardless which
clients are being used. At that point Ginkgo will be worth the higher
cover charge :)

Well I would say someone who was over a decade in commercial software at some point tin the past and now is not, is probably is the definition of "out of touch dad".

Not to mention making comparisons about following younger men in a band from bar to bar singing the "same old songs" and claiming to be a groupie. Which seems mighty weird to me, if not surreal. But each to his own fetishes and penchants.

Specific advice about payment options & forms, etc with links to facts & figures & surveys is different to general sycophantic praise blurb.

Plus detailed feedback about: software features settings etc again versus walls of text with nothing specific about the software, solutions, payments, facts figures etc.

However no more such detailed technical feedback will be forthcoming from me for sure.

Yet another confusion is about the competition.

Again this is not general waffle as we might read. It specifically was about:

* Novel new features, not general jive as generalized here, in a software in a niche area
* Secondly as brought up recently by me in another thread, this Miller Column design will not be unexplored for long
* It was not the initial invention of the wheel either as claimed
* Others are also entering the field as seen in that thread
* Once others join in with a proper outliner tree editor in this area, not chunky monkey white boxes in a web-app knock-off, that's it, adieu
* There will be more Miller Column designs and it won't matter who was moonlighting or which elderly gentleman fantasized how romantic the young singer was in a bar.
* As Ceausescu discovered on the balcony, the same praise singing sycophantic crowd will be the first rats leaving the sinking ship. This, history has shown again & again. Then it is too late to look back at technical specific advice that was ignored. Not to mention commercial ones, vs general blah blah blah as though Laurel giving advice to Hardy.

Finally, declaring most users want subscriptions based wares is yet another baseless generalization. As many have said here, they won't use subs-ware apps & forums, etc. Each to his own.

Someone here said from the track-record looks like Gingko is going nowhere. Sums it up. If it is just an after-work side project, then I won't be investing my long term time or data.

This post was fun to do.

Perfect pair:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnn-AVexPvQ

:)

Have been posting here since 2006; it's always been a very congenial, non-combatative forum where all contributors tried to share information about new software and support the developers of that software. In those 12 years, with the exception of one person who stopped posting here ages ago, I have never seen nasty personal attacks. But I guess the new generation is different. See ya.

"...support the developers of that software..."

Well, that's the crux of it. How best to support developers. Praise and acclaim; or feedback and criticism. A measured balance of both?

You're right, there's no place for personal attacks here, but your infamous "boy band" post, where you mischaracterized "feedback and criticism" for "boos and suck" was kinda asking for it, though.

dan7000 wrote:

Have been posting here since 2006; it's always been a very congenial,
non-combatative forum where all contributors tried to share information
about new software and support the developers of that software. In those
12 years, with the exception of one person who stopped posting here ages
ago, I have never seen nasty personal attacks. But I guess the new
generation is different. See ya.

I beg to differ. I did not see any outrage by you when this was posted against anyone sounding suggestions:

Don’t worry - as you will already have seen, the world is divided into those who by default and as a result, no doubt, of bitter childhood experiences, impute the > most cynical motives to software developers, and those who - like myself - enormously appreciate the difficult battle any independent developer faces to get > his/her software recognised, used and possibly even very slightly profitable.

That is double standards.

Nor after I said why attack people with suggestions about how to improve the software and make more money by a specialist forum where other users are giving business advice level ideas which would be considered consultancy, to which you replied:

The out of touch dad who comes over after the gig to give the lead singer some “business advice” is hilarious.

Once again another personal attack initiated against anyone with mere suggestions.

And, they were your own words.

Sincere best wishes to everyone on this forum.

Goodbye.

~was here

Oh dear. Some fragile personalities, I feel.

Firstly, I suggest a fruitful forum should always involve a modicum of self-irony: i.e. don't take yourself too seriously.

Second, I've got no problem with criticism as such, but do find the sometimes highly cynical terms used by certain commentators a little offensive. The ad-hominem attacks on Adrian were a good example, hence my attempt to restore the balance.

I think most people who contribute to this forum are appreciative of small, independent developers, while at the same time perfectly capable of making judgements on whether such developers are overcharging for their wares, or not providing enough support, and so on.

I've criticised developers here myself (e.g. Glam Software, just the other day), but I try and refrain from imputing grisly, cynical motives to them because, at the end of the day, I have absolutely no idea what problems (personal, professional, commercial) they may be facing, or whether they're an overstretched one-man band, or whatever. So I prefer to confine myself facts (the developer is IMHO charging too much for the app; the developer is not issuing regular updates) rather than musing on the developer's purely theoretical business/personal inadequacies.

May I suggest that slanging developers off just because they're not doing exactly what you want them to do is counterproductive. Make suggestions by all means. Express regret or disappointment. But don't start building unpleasant, negative scenarios based on purely theoretical imaginings of commercial exploitation. That's unfair and unfounded. As a small businessman myself, this is something I feel very strongly about.

Best wishes to everybody, in any case.
Bill

Funny how this started over being scared to use a credit card on the internet. Apparently we're in the early 2000s again. But then also being unsatifsfied with the option to pay with bitcoin -- which should be a much better choice from a privacy/security standpoint.

Reading comprehension...

He wasn't "scared to use a credit card on the internet." He was reluctant to give his credit card details to the developer who then explained that his payment system used Stripe, and so was in fact safe and secure.

And the point about bitcoin wasn't "dissatisfaction", it was the developer's decision to offer a bitcoin payment option but not a PayPal option. When given the choice, I always prefer to pay via PayPal, and not hand over my credit card details. I imagine others feel the same, so the lack of a PayPal option theoretically limits his prospective customer base.

Jan S. wrote:

Funny how this started over being scared to use a credit card on the
internet. Apparently we're in the early 2000s again. But then also being
unsatifsfied with the option to pay with bitcoin -- which should be a
much better choice from a privacy/security standpoint.