In a long rambling (and in places confusing) email, Adriano -- Gingko's developer -- announced the final release of Gingko desktop. A pay-what-you-choose stand-alone desktop app. Suggested price $45. It does not sync with anything. Export/import JSON. Eventually (he says) there will be a rewritten web app that syncs with the desktop.

Early days, but first impressions are that $45 might be too much for what I got.

Reminds me a bit of the (now-defunct) Writers Cafe, a rather elegant piece of software in its day.

btw, "final release" -- I should have written "first release" after the beta period.

MadaboutDana wrote:

Reminds me a bit of the (now-defunct) Writers Cafe, a rather elegant
piece of software in its day.

Hm. The only Writer's Cafe software I know is this:
http://www.writerscafe.co.uk/
And I don't think you're talking about that. Do you have a link to "your" Writer's Cafe?

He probably meant to post under the "FreeWriter" topic.

Paul Korm wrote:

Early days, but first impressions are that $45 might be too much for
what I got.

In fairness, you can move the slider down to $15 if that's all you feel it's worth.

I think it's worth $15 for current product, $45 for future potential. There's a lot missing, and based on what the developer wrote, I'm not convinced that he intends to provide it.

shatteredmindofbob wrote:

Paul Korm wrote:

>Early days, but first impressions are that $45 might be too much for
>what I got.

In fairness, you can move the slider down to $15 if that's all you feel
it's worth.

Yup, that's the one. I used to do quite a lot of work with this tool.

Hm. The only Writer's Cafe software I know is this:
http://www.writerscafe.co.uk/
And I don't think you're talking about that. Do you have a link to
"your" Writer's Cafe?

MadaboutDana wrote:

Yup, that's the one. I used to do quite a lot of work with this tool.

>Hm. The only Writer's Cafe software I know is this:
>http://www.writerscafe.co.uk/
>And I don't think you're talking about that. Do you have a link to
>"your" Writer's Cafe?

It still seems to be alive.
I used Storylines for a novel some years ago, when Storylines was sold as a standalone product. I never found any use of the rest of Writer's Café.

BTW: The programmer also wrote a e-book creation software called Jutoh that some of my colleagues swear by.

OK OK, who was it that said this is not Reddit? Let's get back ON Topic. It's was an interesting discussion, early on, in this thread:

His app has, or rather had, great initial appeal and novelty. But it seems to me that the Desktop offline version has these problems on Windows:

- Took a long time and not much changed, just debugging? Not good enough.
- Looks like a basic browser based app, even if not, looks it
- No settings to speak of
- No features to speak of as such
- No real menu options to speak of either
- No visualization or theme
- No ability to change font properties or even color etc
- No ability to change cell properties or color etc
- No ability to change the background duo-tone weird blue
- No Auto save option, timed nor even on exit
- Opens blank file, no option for last file
- Not even a functioning recent files menu/submenu

- Not to mention a host of standard features in any serious outliner or note taking app lacking here

- No prospect of an alternate standard outline view as a mode vis-a-chia current clunky boxes, which will not do in a large data model. Needs at least option to collapse all to first line & smaller height. And definable or scrollablewidth.

I don't know what he's been doing all this time wrt the Desktop offline ver, but it's still as basic as it can be.

I don't see him adding any of the above listed minimum bear necessities anytime soon. I'm not holding my breath.

I think his mode of work is stuck into a sort of limitations. Maybe he needs another coder to help.

But it's a shame, he could have made this initial good idea into something more adequate if not substantial. And success would have followed.

Good luck to him.

washere wrote:

OK OK, who was it that said this is not Reddit? Let's get back ON Topic.

:-) (Hope that's not too off-topic)

Franz Grieser wrote:

washere wrote:

>OK OK, who was it that said this is not Reddit? Let's get back ON
Topic.

:-) (Hope that's not too off-topic)

hehe I laughed when you ordained this is not Reddit, more than anyone you've derailed numerous on-topic discussions into oblivion here & now you've done it again, congrats bud :D


Anyone serious about Ginkgo desktop though, see my list of shortcomings on page 2 of this thread, maybe including the dev?

This is their forum, but won't have time to have presence there:

http://community.gingkoapp.com/

Maybe he's busy doing so many versions including chrome app, I don't know. Maybe so many versions keeps him from developing & adding more features, as a feature might not work on one or more versions. Maybe he should have different versions and keep Win/Mac progressing with more features.

Paul Korm wrote:

In a long rambling (and in places confusing) email, Adriano -- Gingko's
developer -- announced the final release of Gingko desktop.

I got Adriano's email about this the other day, but this *must* have been somehow announced earlier, perhaps on this site, because I bought a desktop license for Gingko more than two months ago.

Gingko Desktop, out of beta, was released in December 2017:

http://community.gingkoapp.com/t/gingko-2-out-of-beta-0-8-0/548

Is his core clientele really more likely to have Bitcoin than PayPal? Of the two payment options available for the desktop version - Bitcoin or sharing my credit card information with an overseas one-man band who may or may not practice good digital security habits - neither appeals. Seriously: he takes Bitcoin but not PayPal?

As washere pointed out in his usual thorough detail, the desktop version of Gingko came out of the oven half-baked, with a few fingernails and teeth still in the pastry. Cynical me wonders if the developer put it on the table to pull in some quick cash as it doesn't seem like he's getting rich off the online version of the app. He's not going to get rich off the desktop version, either.

Maybe he'll add missing features over time, but first impressions do count.

bobmclain wrote:

Is his core clientele really more likely to have Bitcoin than PayPal?

I paid (from within the app, I think) using my credit card. Using Stripe processing. Never saw anything about Bitcoin.

On his website he now only takes bitcoin or credit cards on a page which collects data under his domain name and his server or web host.

He's got to get the business basics right to make enough money to fuel further progress. Even if he won't contract bits to another coder. That includes PayPal on his website and other basic effective and free marketing means.

He should get the Win/Mac/online into series shape and that's where the majority of users & revenue is. That includes adequate:

Features
Interface
Customization
Settings

If not to professional levels at least to adequate levels. He can use a modern lib kit for both Mac/Win platforms for interface coding. So really one project.

Then with more income coming in, he can farm out contacts for apps, chrome, Linux etc.

I think he's just happy ticking over which won't do. Someone else will do the same interface, and well this time, with at least some features if not serious ones.

Sorry about the usual typo, not typing but swyping on the phone.

Hi all.

There's a lot to address here, and I won't get into all of it, except to clarify some points.

I wasn't aware that Bitcoin came up as an option, and will disable it (it's more confusing than anything).
I wish I could support PayPal... really I do, and not just so I can get more money in my "cash grabs", but because I want Gingko to be accessible to everyone, and not everyone has a credit card. But for now, the accounting and integration with PayPal is a real headache compared to what I'm using (stripe.com), especially when I want to offer things like Pay-What-You-Want.

With Stripe, none of your card details are stored (or in fact, ever even reach) my servers/databases.

As for the other comments, regarding the app's half-baked state... I know!!
Releasing software is damn hard... but writing it in a vacuum is even harder.

Not everyone agrees with the approach, but enough people have given me helpful feedback that I'm happy with the decision.

Yo Adrian,

Don't worry - as you will already have seen, the world is divided into those who by default and as a result, no doubt, of bitter childhood experiences, impute the most cynical motives to software developers, and those who - like myself - enormously appreciate the difficult battle any independent developer faces to get his/her software recognised, used and possibly even very slightly profitable.

How much more difficult that battle becomes when the software concerned is, like Gingko, a genuinely unusual concept that is breaking new ground and consequently testing the developer's conceptual prowess to the limit!

For example, I have no idea how you'll handle exports, and dare to venture that you're probably pondering exactly how you'll do it, too. So in short, I salute you, and admire your flexible pricing model, which is really quite a neat way of dialoguing with your users. And dialogue is the name of the (successful developer's) game - just look at the respect people like Pierre (InfoCube) have built up by their readiness to discuss both the strengths and the weaknesses of their software models.

In short, bravo! We're almost all watching Gingko with enormous interest. Personally, I love the little keyboard hints that pop up in the latest version - what a good idea.

Big personal hint: search should definitely be your next priority, even above exporting... ;-)

Best wishes,
Bill

know!!
Releasing software is damn hard... but writing it in a vacuum is even
harder.

* Can set payment page to stripe's own site & page and back after completing transaction to let buyers know it is via them

* IIRC a survey I read said 50% of people do not buy if their preferred payment option is not available
https://hillmediagroup.com/do-people-prefer-paypal-over-paying-directly-by-credit-card/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/508988/preferred-payment-methods-of-online-shoppers-worldwide/

* The large amount of money that would come in via Paypal would easily pay for a few hundred bucks annually for an online accountant to take care of additional paypal accounting, afraid of

* Maybe not sliding but can have multiple payment options in Paypal, as same product or as separate products, eg: $15 30 45 60 90 or even more options

* I do not think it is necessary to hold back Mac/Win desktop versions (coded as one project) in their competitive arena because of wanting universality of features on apps/Linux/web versions. Many wares have diff features on diff platforms

* Like the Paypal accounting, with additional improved mac/win income, parts of coding for other platforms can be contracted out in parts with NDA etc
https://everynda.com/blog/protect-software-code-nda/
Probably can find generic NDA forms sp. for programming sector online for free, it is quite routine

* Every improvement creates income which lets one do more improvements and features

A good desktop version for mac/win will generate business for online & other platforms too.

- Holding back the two main desktop versions because of all or a few other devices' versions or
- Not delegating anything even Paypal accounting

Means:

Major loss of revenue
Loss of progress in versions and
I am glad some are over the moon with the product despite no progress. But there is a Real Possibility that after some competitor(s) entering this niche area, the same minority of users full of praise, will be the first to migrate as history teaches.

"I love criticism just so long as it's unqualified praise." ~Noel Coward

Just some ideas.

Bon chance.

Yeah, I think the search/filter functionality from the online version would be a must-have for me.

MadaboutDana wrote:

Big personal hint: search should definitely be your next priority, even
above exporting... ;-)

I don't know what you mean by "bitter childhood experiences", but what you call cynicism, I call realism, which is often in short supply. My intent is not to berate developers, but to slightly tilt this forum away from the "developers ought to be praised always, always!" refrain and more in line with what it means to run a business and satisfy customers. If a developer is giving away his software, it doesn't really matter; but if he's charging, then it most certainly does, and I'm glad that a few of the contributors, such as washere, are beginning to be more critical of what (and who) is out there. If feelings are hurt, and the criticism taken personally, then that right there is a good indicator of whether someone has the mindset for success.

MadaboutDana wrote:

Yo Adrian,

Don't worry - as you will already have seen, the world is divided into
those who by default and as a result, no doubt, of bitter childhood
experiences, impute the most cynical motives to software developers, and
those who - like myself - enormously appreciate the difficult battle any
independent developer faces to get his/her software recognised, used and
possibly even very slightly profitable.

How much more difficult that battle becomes when the software concerned
is, like Gingko, a genuinely unusual concept that is breaking new ground
and consequently testing the developer's conceptual prowess to the
limit!

For example, I have no idea how you'll handle exports, and dare to
venture that you're probably pondering exactly how you'll do it, too. So
in short, I salute you, and admire your flexible pricing model, which is
really quite a neat way of dialoguing with your users. And dialogue is
the name of the (successful developer's) game - just look at the respect
people like Pierre (InfoCube) have built up by their readiness to
discuss both the strengths and the weaknesses of their software models.

In short, bravo! We're almost all watching Gingko with enormous
interest. Personally, I love the little keyboard hints that pop up in
the latest version - what a good idea.

Big personal hint: search should definitely be your next priority, even
above exporting... ;-)

Best wishes,
Bill

>know!!
>Releasing software is damn hard... but writing it in a vacuum is even
>harder.

Frankly some of the constructive reviews, feedback and suggestions I have read on this forum in various threads by others would be classed as business advice & consultancy.

Which the more enlightened businesses often commission and pay a lot for, hence prosper and grow. This forum is specialist and that's why the devs are here.



“I think it’s very important to have a feedback loop, where you’re constantly thinking about what you’ve done and how you could be doing it better.” ~Elon Musk

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” + "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"~Winston Churchill

“We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve.” ~Bill Gates